As we all, hopefully, know, almost every "HYIP" here is paying off its members from other member's money. Now lets not scream ponzi yet and see where this takes us.

Here's an interesting article to read:
http://www.detailshere.com/ponzipyramid.htm

First, let me ask everyone a question. Is a HYIP illegal if you blatantly come out and say, that, your program is paying out its members from other member's deposits? How can it then be considered a ponzi? One of the major points that defines a ponzi is the source of the new income is concealed. Ponzis are illegal because the new members are not aware that their "investment" is not really safe, when the money is only coming from other people.

I will now quickly interrupt to go on a tangent about our economy. Our economy may have become more complex than it was hundreds of years ago, but the prinicple is still the same. We trade one item for another. Years ago, people would trade five chairs they crafted for twenty steak dinners. Don't quote me on my archaic exchange rate, but learn from my example. Now, in this modern era, we use currencies to manage our wealth. This makes our everyday lives easier. When we work for our money, it never magically comes from the sky creating "more" of it. Money is always coming from someone else. Most of the time, money is received because of trading one item for another. Because of this, there is never a win-win "get rich quick scheme". Someone always has to pay someone else in order for the receiver to "profit". This is essentially what is happening in HYIP games such as ViciousGame and White-Funds. They came out and started their programs, telling every member, "We do not invest your money anywhere. This is a money game. We pay you with other peoples money."

What is illegal about giving people money?

You know, charities give people money that isn't theirs... but the "investors" agreed to the terms explaining what the charity does with the money. Just like the HYIP game terms our players agree to.

You know what is a ponzi scheme, our government. Almost every state, if not every, hosts a lottery, or can participate in a lottery. Everyone puts their money into a pot. This pot is not invested anywhere. When someone wins, they receive everyone elses money. Who benefits from this everytime? Our government. They take around 33% of whatever income we make. (Here in the United States at least.) Yes, I know I just called our government a ponzi scheme... that was for dramatic effect, yet it doesn't stray far from the truth. Our government is taking membership fees from its citizens and providing them with a service: A beautiful country to live in. They manage countless things for this country, and keep it in running order. This system is a system of using one persons money to pay another, in a sense. Modern currency has concealed this redistribution of money, but if you look at how this would work in the archaic era, you will quickly see that our government takes one asset from us, and gives us back another asset. Same thing with all the non-scamming HYIPs today. We give the HYIPs our money in return for a chance at more money. On a larger scale, or year by year basis, most of the money will just be moved around from person to person. For example, Person A wins big from Person B in Game 1, then Person B wins big from Person A in Game 2. It doesn't always go like this, but that's where the gambling of it is involved. Our government can give us "their word" that the money we pay the government will be used to help us, but it's only their word. There is a very small risk, but if our economy goes under, we ALL just lost in our "investment gamble". Call me crazy, but if you really understand the truth of how everything works, you'll see the scary, almost humorous, truth on how the world's economy works.

The entire world is just one gamble to the next. Some are high risk investments. Some are low risk investments, like our government's economy and banking structure. But you cannot deny the fact that everything is a gamble, and nothing is completely "set in stone" and secured.

Like Chevy Chase said in Vegas Vacation:

"Columbus made a big gamble by sailing to America." There was no certainty to Columbus finding new land. He could of very well died, but he chose to enter that gamble. Folks, everything is a gamble, even life itself.

This is my declaration of war on the legalities of money games. If a money game is really paying and running "honestly", as we say around here, then who should be able to stop it? As long as the game states exactly what they are doing with the money, and the game operators (admins) follow the terms and rules they set themselves, like White-Funds and ViciousGame did. Obviously scamming should still be illegal, but that falls under every country's theft laws.

Thoughts and feelings on the subject?

-Jonathan-

yes, i have absollutely same thoughts - everything is a gamble.

One thing for sure, All these Scammers are going to bring the Gov/FBI down on this whole thing in the US including mmg. And Yes, they can track down scammers even if scammed last month or last year. And they can track them right to their house no matter how hard they try to hide. And I bet they ARE collecting data Right Now.

I don't have time to elaborate but the fact is, most of the HYIP on mmg are illegal, scam or not.
Takin a pee behind the bar is illegal and so is this, like it or not even if you try to disguise it.

I will add though, football pools are illegal. Speeding is illegal. Peeing behind the bar is illegal.
I think you know what I mean-lol

I'm not trying to diguise it, I'm simply asking, why should this be illegal? I don't see any good reason for it to be. If a program doesn't guarantee any profits, then why is that illegal? You're just passing money around and everyone has agreed to those terms.

Shoot, you can ask that about a lot of things. All you can do is work with others to try to get the law changed but til then, it's illegal

Why was this thread moved? Not that I have a huge problem with it, but see folks, this is what I'm talking about. Big Brother interpretting rules differently.

And I quote from the forum list:


This is HYIP discussion, so I assumed it went into the discussion section.

Anyway, not a big deal, it's up to the mods to put it where they want. Afterall they are offering us an awesome free service (the message boards).

So I also assume that the e-gold coin flipping games are also illegal, correct?

Boy it sure didn't take mmg long to move this one out of HYIP forum.



I believe mmg knows this is a dead forum BUT All kinds come in this forum. Not Just HYIP players so really I think people who would never see this do see it and wonder what the heck kinda stuff is goin on mmg

Very good post - exactly the same thoughts i've been having recently.

You know, our government laws are really silly. Ponzis are considered illegal, but look at this:

http://www.wealthwars.com/

I respect the creators of that site, and I think it's a great idea. In no way do I want harm to come to them. But if you look at the site, it's obvious that the only way people are "making money" there, is from other member's money.

Is Wealth Wars considered a ponzi? No. Is Wealth Wars legal? Yes, completely 100%! (As far as I can tell, but I'm no legal guru.)

So why is it Wealth Wars operates on the same principles of a ponzi, but just because they play games it's legal?

Our government has serious issues... I'm going to fire whoever wrote these laws, haha.....

Oh great! Now this post has been moved...AGAIN! To Taxes, Offshore Banking, & Legal Discussion, does anyone actually come to this forum?!

Great way to silence an idealist.

This is dissapointing...

ROFLMAO!!

That is so Funny

Makes ya wonder doesn't it

But I like the game so

Yes.. it's all a money game.. I totally agree.. I don't see the difference if you have a tangible product or not. It's all about buy/invest in this so i can make money... OH.. you want to make money? Do what I do..

So... while people are complaining about losing money, but we have an entire thread just for gambling and online poker games? huh.. It's ok to lose 6k in a bet but not ok to lose 6k in Stormpay? Yeah.. it's sucks tho.. no way around that..

But what really kills me is that don't the investigators for all this BS about auto-surfing and ponzi have to be proven. Esp for autosurfing.. that doesn't make any sense. I have all my websites stats. Autosurfing definitely helped my SEO. So not only do they have to prove that it's just a ponzi, but they also have to prove that auto surfing is not an effective marketing tool.

So.. Like you said.. it's all BS.. I just wrote a blog about who are the biggest scammers in history.. what a coincidence.

Though I am VERY conserative, I can tell You the BIGGEST SCAMMERS in American History is the Bush Family. Remember the S&L thing in the 80's - Bush's Got Billions if not Trillions. Then this oil thing. They had Loads of what used to be WORTHLESS Oil land in US cuz it cost too much to pump. Now it's Worth BILLIONS and they are Making BILLIONS from that Oil.

And then there's Enron and all the BILLIONS it Stole from US and especially California...Bush's Big Owners in Enron

Some estimate the Bush Org has stole between 7-10 TRILLION Dollars over the past couple of decades!

Now That's a Scammer - lol

Heh, lets not attack anyone directly. Don't wanna start a political party war. I'm merely stating that our government in general, over the years, has been creating these awkward financial laws.

I would agree. I believe it isn't necessarily illegal for the investor but I do believe it's illegal to start one. I believe the thw owner of the HYIP would bear most of the legal ramifications of starting a ponzi scheme. For the investors, I would believe that you would be unable to seek financial or legal retribution because the business in which you invested in, was illegal.

Let me re-phrase that. It would be illegal for U.S. citizens or non residents living in the U.S. to start a HYIP, not citizens from a different countries based solely on the fact that I wouldn't know their laws.

I would tend to agree that our government can make the laws work in their favor to ensure that they profit on deals that the common U.S. man or U.S. woman can't. I am a veteran of the armed services and I was very proud to serve as a Marine, but the more I find out how the U.S. government makes things so unfair while making everything for the officials of government and government itself so powerful, is just a disgrace. I love my Country and everything about the U.S., but I would say I am amongst many when I say most of our political leaders are crooks.

Not only Hyips, but even life as a whole is a gamble.

"Life is a gamble. You can get hurt, but people die in plane crashes, lose their arms and legs in car accidents; people die every day. Same with fighters: some die, some get hurt, some go on. You just don't let yourself believe it will happen to you."
-- Muhammed Ali

Just don't let yourself believe the scam will happen to you