I have seen in many threads in this forum different posts and threads about scams and scammers.

Now here is the question. What is a scam and what is a scammer?

Another question. If 12DP cloesed its doors today and said they were done, even though they have paid out 1000's of dollars on time every time to its members....would they be labeled as a scam...or would the admin be scammers?

Right now 12DP is the best, no one has much of anything bad to say about them. The admin is great, the program is great everything is great. O.K. what happens if the above scenario hits?

What about Studio Traffic? They are down now and re-doing things. What about DadnDaves? Both good programs. Both have paid out alot of money to their members. What if they disapeared today?

This is my thought. I have no doubt that the admin and the program and anyone associated with them would be smeared even if they wer 12DP, studio traffic or whoever.. Even though right now, they are great and they are doing such a good job. I know for a fact that the admin and the program would be called a ponzi scheme and they would be called scammers and all of that junk.....EVEN THOUGH...they have paid out alot of money to their members and have kept their word to their members and all of that.

I know many good admins that have good programs and are paying out, and doing what they are supposed to do. I also know a number of admins that fell into that same category of paying out etc. that through whatever reason had to shut their programs down. Does that make them a scammer?

I have seriously considered opening a program of my own. I have the business savvy the finances etc to make it work, but what if on that note, something happened that was out of my control and the program had to be shut down. I know that I am not a scammer...I know that I would be called a scammer. But I know that I am not...interesting point eh?

So what is really a scam and/or scammer?

Good questions, and I am curious to see your answers and your ideas.

A scam is when someone sets out to scam people, plain and simple. Some people jump up and say scam for no reason and the only reason they do that is because they don't know how the game goes.

all programs who closed their doors are scam !

if 12dp closes its doors it comes as huge paid scam

if unknown one does it then it comes as few or unpaid scam

it's the difference

A scam, like eddie said, is a program that opens up with the deliberate intention of making the admin as much money as possible then shutting down.

I also think a ponzi that seriously goes to great lengths to misrepresent themselves (ex: PIPS) can be considered a scam as well.

Exactly my point, right here.

12DP is NOT a scam, and if they had to close up shop because lack of cash or something (which I thought would have happened long ago) then they would have to close. It's not because they scammed anyone.

GCI is a scam. Amigosurf is a scam. They set out to rob people and they did.

I agree Mobile....

There are alot of people that shout scam and destroy a person and their program when in all actuality it is not a scam and they had no intention of scamming.

I have been in business for over 17 years and I know that things come up that just absolutely cannot be helped.

In the real world if the hardware store closes its doors owing people money...or better yet Delta airlines and all of the other airlines that filed bankruptcy still owing people money...no one calls them scams..it is just part of life...right?!

i agree

It isn't a matter of things "coming up," as there is no real business involved. These are ponzi's, period.

How you decide to classify ponzi's is what we are looking at and there is a very legitimate argument that can be made for calling all hyip's/autosurfers/doublers/etc scams.

I personally don't see it that way but, as ponzi's are illegal in almost every country in the world, they may very well be correct.

Yes. "Scam" is a favorite chant of trolls who use it just to upset members and worry them over their investments. It's becoming a meaningless word because people who simply hate a program will post "Scam".

If 12dp ran out of money...it would be a failed program, but there have been a few in the thread who have called it a scam months ago.

If studio doesn't recover it failed but we have people yelling scam here also.

The pin ladies have been called scammers because tgt failed. A mistake yes but deliberate attempt to grab all money and run...no. They still have a web presence.

A scam was planned from the get go plain and simple.

His current actions are not looking very good though....

I disagree that there is no real business invloved in the running of an autosurf, HYIP etc. I think that is probably a little less intense than a secular business is, but there are still business things that do happen. In a scam no there is no business at all bu taking the money and pourchasing plane tickets to the neares Carribean island.

As far as scammers and ponzis goes, that brings up another question, which you brought out....if all autosurfs, HYIP etc are ponzis then is every program including 12DP a scam even right now! If that is the case then arent we all involved in legal activities and arent all owners of these programs committing crimes?

I was talking about business from a financial perspective, not an administrative one. These programs all claim to be involved in trading, betting, loans, etc. Even if they have a serious issue with their website, that has no impact on the "trading" they are doing and they should have no problem recovering, albiet payments might not be able to be processed for a period of time.




Legally speaking, we as members are in a grey area however the administrators are definitely running illegal programs. I've found a way to justify my participation in these programs and I can sleep fine at night.

Its getting to be such a broad term that if a cycler stalled for months and had to close because it ran out of money...it would be called a scam.

The question is though, anytime someone loses money in a program is that a scam?

Not a scam just because someone lost.

If it stalls out then it stalls out. Trust me, it happens

Ponzis are what most of these are, not all but most. Ponzis make some people a lot of money...wish I was one of them

A scam is when someone has the intention of scamming...running out of money and other things like that do happen. Especially around Xmas.

I bet that's why ST has this current situation, so people won't withdraw and crash the system...that's my theory anyway.

THis debate can go on forever on legalities and all that but to get back to the original subject...a scam is when it's intentional.

But if you think about running a program, some people will say that word to you no matter what you do so be prepared for it. And make sure your health is good BEFORE you go in because the stress most people feel crushes them.

Guess I better get back to keeping an eye on schemers and scammers and making MMG safe...

Thanks Mobile....

There are alot of interesting thoughts popping up.

This is all good discussion...amd I like it!

I sleep great at night to even though I am particiapting and surfng in some HYIP and autosurfs..

Better treasure that sleep now because if you run a program, you lose sleep.

I agree Mobile I agree....We will see what happens...if I open program it wont be until in January and I might not even open one...

Thanks for the advice.

Even though I'm depressed about the ST situation, I certainly don't think you could call it a scam. I joined earlier in the year and only upgraded seriously before the summer, once I had read a lot in MMG about how good it was. It was good then, it was never a scam, people were earning big money and I'm only sorry I hadn't joined earlier when it was a good-going concern. I've been paid once by them and I hope I'll see more.

Yes, we all know the risks when we go in, we know that nothing lasts forever and we know that we should not put in more than we can afford to lose. I know that when I upgraded in ST that I could afford to lose it but obviously I would prefer not to. If ST pulls the plug tomorrow, I still wouldn't call it a scam as their record over the couple of years shows that they didn't set out to rob people.

But what annoys a lot of people is the way that ST has treated its customers since October.

If it still is an honest organisation, then the admin team must take the blame for extremely poor communication and a total misunderstanding of the mood of the membership. Perhaps this self-delusion comes from its own forum, where negativity is blitzed and John assumes that the resulting sycophancy gives him carte blanche to do what he wants. It seems to me that something happened which they did not want to convey to the members in case mass panic set in. The whole thing has been so badly handled that, instead of trying to allay fears, ST has created a good degree of panic and is now just alienating many of the people who made the company famous = biting the hand that feeds.

If it is not an honest organisation, why would John have all these Paltalk meetings with people? If he was just a scammer, he surely would not put himself through the daily grind of people trying to grill him for answers - he would just run off with the money. Nobody seems to know where he is from (see other threads) or where he is based so he could do a runner quite easily. But he is still there, trying to put his spin on it. Even if the whole GAC / China plan is just smoke and mirrors and is just a delaying tactic to hide a lack of funds, they are still there in the mix and not rushing off anywhere. Very poor PR but not a scam.

I certainly hope 12DP can come up with the goods, as I've just joined today. The 12 DP thread is full of shiny happy people having been paid. The only tension seems to be people getting anxious about 6 days wait or 7 - when you have to wait at least 30 days in ST, 6 or 7 days is nothing. If 12DP went down tomorrow, I would be unhappy like many others and serious questions would be asked but the bottom line is that up till now they have paid regularly. Good communication so far and not a scam.

Anyway, if you're going into this business properly, Wasatch, I wish you the best of luck - just try to be more Charis than John.

Allf this is good stuff. I really just want to know peoples feelings, thoughts and ideas on this issue.

There are so many different facets of online programs and money mking situations that the more knowledge we can get and give the better we will be.

Good thread as always, wasatch9

I find myself consistently altering my attitude as I learn more and more about this AS game, and I’m beginning to realize that it just might be a strong possibility that ALL programs are basically ponzi’s to some degree. A few are just run better than others with more experienced admins. With that said, the question could then be asked, are all ponzi’s scams? If that were the case, all programs are scams to some degree, lol. But my opinion is that all ponzi’s are NOT scams. ST is a good example… I don’t think that the admin purposely set out to have his program end up the way it did.. it was just a case of an unskilled admin trying to run a ponzi that grew to a disproportionate length. Then again, it did last for 2 years, so was he really THAT unskilled?

To me, a scam or scammer (not a ponzi) is a program that is run by a lying admin, who leads people into believing he/she is doing miracle investments (forex being the most common of them) with the money, with the intent to build a false security so more and more people invest more and more money faster. This person had the intention from the beginning to eventually run once the cash flow builds to their satisfaction. But that still doesn’t mean the wise gamer CAN’T make money from these people. The sad part is, is that less experienced investors get confused, caught up in the hype, then get disillusioned when they get burned. But that’s beside the point.

Notice how the more reliable (longer existing and consistently paying) programs like 12DP, daves, etc., never make false promises, or never reveal their investment secrets, if there even are in fact investments they make with the money. So is 12DP a scam? There’s no way a scam would of lasted as long as they have, built such a huge positive reputation, and continued paying members as consistently as they have. Are they a ponzi? Well, that’s an entirely different story.

Egads, typos galore

You make a very good point. There is I think a verifiable difference between a scam and a ponzi.

I think therein lies the answer to alot of questions.

I agree 12DP is not a scam even if they closed thier doors tomorrow...they have done what they said that they would and have done it quite well. I also agree that it is not important to know where the funds are being invested but rather that payouts are being done and that the people are being told the truth.

Really if you boil it right down, is not the Stocl Market and programs affiliated with this type of trading a type of ponzi....maybe I am wrong and probably will receive some heat from that statement...but could it not be?

Scammers are the drudge of this industry. There are scammers in the real world and scammers in the online world..I really think that what we need to do as responsible money makers is rather than panic when there is a hiccup or problem...just remember that not everyone is a scammer, or is starting a scam program.

Again it falls back on due diligence and using common sense...that is the safe way to take care of things.


So what does constitute a scam and/or scammer?

What is it with you Waswatch? You keep on coming up with really great thread topics.
We could all still be on this one next Christmas, and, you have drawn out all the big guns in the first 2 pages.(Mods)

My personal thought is that all programs have a ponzi element, but, the ponzi model alters drastically if there are outside income streams, theoretically a well run ponzi with outside income, and controlled growth could run for a very long time.

I agree with all aspects of hit and runners being scammers, no business plan, no
desire to go anywhere except away as anonymously as possible.

Merry Christmas.

Pete

Thanks Pete for the compliment.

It is always interesting to see what happens to different posts. This one is interesting because there are so many different mind sets.

Some people say a scam is when someone takes the money and runs. Other say that a scam is any auto surf/HYIP etc. and still others say that if 12DP folded today that they would be a scam....

Is there truly a clear cut idea of what a scam is? I think that there is....personally I think a scam is someone like AMigosurf that comes in, uses another MMG member to boost peoples confidence in the program and then runs. I dont think that all autosurfs are scams, nor HYIP's...ponzis perhaps. I truly do not believe that if 12DP cloded its doors tomorrow that anyone could really call it a scam...eight months of perfect payouts and surfing..even though they got the Dos attack and scammers and all of it..they still stayed true to their word.

Unfortunately, if and when 12DP falls there are going to be people calling it and the admin of 12DP scammers...oh well...what do you do?

SOme more thoughts on this anyone?

I agree u.
GCI is really a big scam.


~jyue~

when progam fail to pay, I would consider it SCAM if it was using ponzi model, but lied and said that they earn from trading, advetising...
but if program really did real business and failed to make profit, it would be bedly menaged business not scam (of course if admin can prove that he didnt took investors money and show why and how he lost it...)

Scam is tossed around these days like the word love is, really doesn't have any meaning. >_>.

I think my opinion has been summed up in these excellent posts.

It all goes to the intention of the person/people running the programs.

I totally agree. People have been scammed so many times that it has become a natural phenomenom.

It's the intention of the person running a program. First it may start with good intentions but the greed grows when eating...

But even though ponzi programs aren't necessarily scams (if it is openly announced) I have a little reserved opinion towards those, because the late comers always have to finance them.

Actually, when you think about it thoroughly you would never enter such program if you had high ethics. Even if you knew you are among the first to enter and knew you're not going to lose your money. But when you knew it's the money of the people who get the word later you are a part of that scam already

Too much thinking makes this online business impossible, I guess I should move to work for Red Cross or Salvation Army or such

A scammer has intent to steal, the rest are just failures, for whatever reason.