I cant help but wonder if Nick and his bunch have a suitcase full of money in one hand and a plane ticket to no where in the other. I hope they get to him before he bolts out of the country.

I bet with BetUS. The point I was trying to make is that gambling is a multi $billion business targeting US citizens, ie sending direct mail to address and offering start up and referral bonuses. All this and it's illegal in the US, yet it still happens every day and the industry has grown considerably since 2006.

Ah the soap opera that is P2P....I'm just going to start calling it "As P2P turns."


Come now, which one of you called the ND securities.....Drillbit? Eddie? PN? Legion? Did the OSC and SEC stop taking your calls? Were Andy Griffith and Barney Fife busy....North Dakota, they probably haven't had a call this year. Some of you guys need to get a frickin life. For the life of me I can't seem to grasp why adults would spend the time and energy on a program they're not even a part of. Hiring lawyers....I think Drillbit's buddy hired Magnum PI...blowing up the phone lines....countless hours of research trying to come up with good arguments. I mean I see some of you guys disecting paragraphs like Madden breaks down 322 Waggle Z out. It seems some of you have a personal agenda with Nick. I haven't seen jealousy like this since high school. Did Nick steal one of your's girlfiend back in the day? Please spare me the, "we're helping the newbies make an educated decisoin BS." None of you care if someone blows $100 on P2P. I see people on this board making it look like the $100 intial deposit is 100k and Nick should be in jail for stealing the $100s upon $100s that are coming into p2p these days. Please, $100 is Wednesday night. Get a grip. I think 95% of the so called naysayers get a little chubby when they see they're name up on the internet. I would also say that 95% of the naysayers have no money and/or are not making any money with any program whether it be online or offline. To spend this much energy on a program you're not even in....come on, you're not going to convince me you're making deek anywhere. Ironically, I believe the only people on these boards that are making money are the so called cheerleaders yet they're being bashed for doing so. I think I'd follow the person making money than the one's broke wasting their time making phone calls from their mama's spare bedroom.

out

Is P2P still paying ?

Pierre

Riddle me this Captain K. Who is right about this scam and who is going to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt wrong now? The naysayers were right all along. It does not matter who called the ND authorities. Its over. I admit I did call the SEC and OSC a long time ago and they both laughed and said well yeah if it sounds too good to be true then it really is. Seems like I have heard that before somewhere. I posted the phone number and names of those I spoke with. Im sure I was not alone. Its been beaten to death for people to check reputable third party sources but Nick had and still has everybody in a trance. Get a grip on yourself because reality is about to set in.

I hope that by my posting I'm not going to drink the Kool-aid... My family already has! Yes reality is setting in. I have preached from from the top of my lungs, but to no avail... why can't they see, can anyone help them but the SEC.

You just prove my point I made earlier and Capt Ks. You don't give a crap about anybody but yourself. You don't care about the newbies, you don't care about the people that are or are not in profits. You have are so bent on closing down something that is helping so many people that you have been calling sec, osc and nds all for what? So that if you close the program everyone loses and some may lose big. Where exactly did you help anyone?
I have no fear, p2p will still keep going but I just can't understand why you and anyone else can be that ignorant to try and hurt so many people and than try to claim your helping. I think I can speak for most when I say please help by getting a life and leave us alone to make the money we have been.
I see all the naysayers so full of "facts" But what I have seen is every post from all of you is nothing more than speculation.
Capt K excellent post and you hit the nail on the head.

It's a shame you choose to live your life in such denial, but it is YOUR life and you can do so if you please.



You continue to totally miss the point at every turn and with every post. NOBODY in this forum is stopping you from making real and honest money.. nothing anybody says in this forum can or will bring P2P down if it is in fact legal and abiding by all the laws it needs to.. so you should take your own advice and stay out of these forums, if you do not referrer people what possible reason do you have to be here?



Odd how you are one of the two main posters that continues to complain about the "naysayers" repeating themselves yet you continue to harp incorrectly on this issue.. there have been plenty of facts but you simply choose to either not believe them or not pursue them...that is your choice again it's your life but by repeatedly saying something will not make is so any more for you that it will for anyone else..

Whether we agree with the current laws or not its still up to a business owner to follow them. Nick is not... so will have to remedy that or close down.. think about it if he is as rich and real as he tells you all why would he not just register the business to continue helping all your poor souls?



Actually is post was rather poor, he tried the same old cheerleader tactic, no facts to prove that Nick and P2P is what they claim so trots out the old the "naysayers" are jealous and don't make money and blah blah blah... you see nonsense like that never gets any traction because those of us that considered to be naysayers don't need to prove anything to people like you and we are well aware of what do and how we in the real world so when people like CapK start in with the insults and name calling all they do is prove the point as to how afraid the cheerleaders are that the gravy train on this Ponzi is over...

Dang it, I must be in the wrong thread again. I thought we were talking about p2p not some ponzi site.

No Kool Aid for you although its often used in bad taste and misrepresented as it refers to a poison used by cult followers of a certain Jim Jones in Jonestown, anyway google it for more info if you like. Think the JJ Cult used flavoured aid and the Kool Aid name grew from there.

I'm sorry to hear about yor family's involvement in this scam, maybe its the greed factor that kicks in and shuts everything else out. I'm not saying your familys greedy just that its how these scams proliferate by feeding on peoples hopes and dreams.

Still at least this ones nearly over.

I'm not sure how much help the SEC can be at this time but it might be worth a call for more information.

I'm sorry for your family's loss and hope they can burst their way out of this ponzi bubble sooner rather than later.
Familys need to pull together in these times, and I hope yours can too..

Don't be fooled by the inane ramblings of the obsessed and slightly easily led cheerleaders they soon get drowned out when reality sets in.

Thank you for your concern and your advice.

Yes my family can and will pull together in these times. Iwill always have the hope that no mater how dark the days seem daylight is coming.
People who play on people's hopes and dreams will soon learn that there is a very big price to pay.

It is as if my family members would drink the Jonestown Kool-Aid if Nick were to tell them it was ok!
Some say that money changes everything. What would change everything though would be to loose your home, your property, your health, your hopes and your dreams because you followed the wrong leader.

Would rather prosper with riches of wisdom love and peace than all the money in the world.

I would be lying if i were to say i was never tempted to join p-2-p Very much so! Now that I resisted and am looked at as a naysayer by some in my family, the hope to be able to be there for them when reality hits and not be a "I TOLD YOU SO BUT YOU WOULDN't LISTEN" person, but instead to Help them however i can to go on and recover some of their integrity and dignity that has been robbed from them.

It is admirable of you to want to protect newbies from sinking money into ponzis so why don't you go after some of the many ponzis advertised right here on every MMG page? Why go after a program you have already pronounced dead and which is not receiving new money from members? Could it be that you harbour a personal grudge against the owner of one particular program? Just guessing, because I don't understand your strategy. How long must a program be "dead" before you leave it alone and tackle some real ponzis? Or is there something sacrosanct about ponzis advertised on MMG as opposed to a program which isn't advertising at all?

Speaking for myself, I can tell why I'm here. The naysayers understand that this was one HUGE Ponzi and that the amounts lost in the end will be HUGE. There isn't enough time to go after every one so you have to pick your battles.

In the end, it's human nature that drives you and others to continue getting involved in this type of program. I have made it clear that I am not judging anyone who participates, even though you and others have attacked me for expressing my opinion.

I am not an "I told you so" type of person because that serves no useful purpose. The bottom line is that anyone who participates in a Ponzi is breaking the law, which is exactly why I got out. You are also taking money from other participants.

If anyone takes the time to read this thread over time, they will at least get to see both sides of the coin. That is what forums are for. Then they can make up their own mind when the next big Ponzi rears its ugly head.

Mark

I don't why you keep complaining about P2P. They won't be taking or giving you any money! We are still getting paid. We're not taking from the poor and giving it to the rich. Everything is legit and you can't stand it!
You haven't "helped" anybody least of all yourself!

I told you so!

Now that you are out, what are you planning to do with the money which you believed was stolen from someone else, possibly me, because I have not yet requested a payout?

Right and I have a great piece of swamp land in Florida in case you are interested.

"Everything is legit"-- and you can prove this how? The fact is you can't. What I can't stand is otherwise good people losing money in Ponzis.

I have in fact helped a number of people along the way and have been thanked for it. I'm sure YOU can't stand THAT!



In case you forgot, I put in $500 and got $600 back. The difference is that I had the guts to get out when I determined it was a Ponzi. If you haven't yet requested a payout, you have broken a cardinal rule of even real investing, i.e. always get your original capital out first so you can't lose.

I honestly and sincerely hope you didn't lose much in this one.

Mark

Are you all still getting paid? As I am hearing from a lot of people they are in fact NOT getting paid and haven't been for a couple of months now.. how did you rate selective payments? Maybe by your cheerleader in public tactic?



Very very funny, could be the funniest thing I've read in months... legit? Hahaha... oh well keep those RCG on enjoy the view while you can.

I thought I might dabble in this "lottery" a couple of months ago and could not even get a verification email from them.

Ater querying it again.....nothing!! My natural thought was things were not so good.............

Sounds like I may have avoided a small loss.

I have not lost anything and I also was wondering just how you determine something is a ponzi? Did you read it in Talkgold, lol?

No, it's determined by experience and common sense. Just as a quick review, this is how many legitimate HYIP's are offered on the Internet: ZERO. If you can find me one, I'm all ears.

The only ones that may be legitimate require NDA's and have independent proof of real investments. The only ones I have found over the years have been offline and not one has ever paid as promised. With some, I lost all of my capital and with others I received a full or partial refund. Some were shut down by the authorities. They all involve brokers or chains of brokers, leaving too much room for fraud.

I have come to learn that unless you have about $10 million, you are at the mercy of the fraudsters even if the ultimate program is legitimate. Guys like Nick are aware of the real programs and that's why they are able to give it the appearance of being legit while offering no proof because it's "private". It's a lie, plain and simple.

The ONLY reason I got involved with P2P is because my sponsor assured me that it was going private soon with its own bank etc. and would require an NDA and would provide proof of investments. He said he got the info from some "insiders", who I don't know because no names were mentioned. It was all hearsay and I am a fool for believing it even though my friend is honest. He believed it too.

As soon as payouts went beyond terms and the bank was "delayed", it became clear to me that this was just a well-organized Ponzi. Now that I see that Nick plays these "games" as well, the outcome is as clear as mud.

Mark

I must ask the trader to "prove" that people are not being paid and only "selective parties" are. I can't find a post anywhere that someone has not been paid once a date is completed with payments. The only ones that may not be paid is because they did not follow the rules about validating their payment processor.

You misunderstood my post.. no worries.

The poster in question said he was still being paid, I thought it was funny that nobody has to receive a penny from the entire month of July that would be due now..and for the last week or so of June for that matter..so I was being pithy saying if he was being paid he must be special somehow.

But for the record there are many cases of people being selectively paid, in the past. How true they were or not I don't know but you will never know reading the private forum or MCF as they are so totally censored I think the word "fact" is filtered if anyone types it

BTW seeing as you are demanding proof of my statement even though it was misunderstood.. do you have any proof that all the payments are being made? I mean do you speak to every single person owed a payment? So you are simply believing the censored info, not too safe a bet in light of the current legal issues

With all your judgement and experience, you still seem unable to answer my question. What are you going to do with the money you received which you believe to be stolen from other people?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!
You don't even know what facts are. Your entire post is all speculation.

No, nobody has asked every single person if they have been paid. But when they are paying one date, I see not one member claiming they were skipped on a prior date.
Why do you feel that this even needs explained to you? You not a member and won't be a member. The site is dead remember, go save people from a ponzi site, there are very many of them all over the forum


I love the swamp land down in florida. If your going to buy swamp land, that is the place to get it.
Why would you want to sell it?


And you can prove that it is, HOW? The fact is you can't.

It admirable if you want to keep people from falling for ponzis. They are advertising all over this forum, go help out.


Everything is speculation Mark. Just cause they got behind on payments doesn't make it a ponzi. Commonsense tell me it is not. I have posted in detail before of why its not.

And then you are saying the only legit ones are the ones with NDAs but everyone you joined has screwed you.
Sound like your blaming nick for every one in the past that did you wrong. Yet you made money with Nick. Bite the hand that feeds you?

I thought we discussed this already but here goes: what would you like me to do with the $100 profit that I made? Change the world?

I'd rather leave that to Nick since he's so much more qualified.


Vinman,

I see you're back at it again. Once again, I apologize for not making myself clear in my posts. I guess it's back to school.

Let's try this one again, also. My point in mentioning that even the legitimate ones that require NDA's haven't paid was to show that REAL HYIP's may exist but I have yet to have one pay. Further, I do not know of anyone who has ever been paid by one.

The programs to which I refer deal with REAL banks and provide proof of funds. The issue has always been that delay after delay then occurs with no real explanation. My understanding is--and I'll repeat again--you need millions just to participate. That is NOT speculation but is based on REAL people in REAL situations.

The funds that are in the bank--whether pooled or from one individual--are safe because they never leave the bank. However, they are only safe to the one person in control of the funds. You must go through brokers to even get to this point and they are usually scam artists.

My theory is that the few programs that may be legitimate simply use the funds in the account to make their returns and then give them back to the broker. The broker then comes back to my group contact and says "sorry the program never got off the ground". Meanwhile, he gets a commission, the big money guys make more money, and we get nothing except a refund at best or our money stolen at worst.

Do you get the gist? The "business" of HYIP's involves MTN's--i.e. bank treasury notes and other monetary devices. These instruments can make daily and monthly interest into the 100's of percent. Google it for more info in case you think I'm making all this up. Our government claims these programs DO NOT EXIST and anyone that tells you they do is a fraud. I'm only explaining this much to show you what is involved in real high-yield investment programs. The only other option is investment clubs that invest in stocks, commodities, real estate etc. Again, all of these are required BY LAW to have NDA's and to be registered with the authorities. That is NOT speculation. Check it out for yourself.

Now, back to P2P. No, I cannot prove it's a Ponzi. I never made that claim of proof. In the end, when it does fall, you will most likely still insist it was legitimate but that the authorities closed it down. That's called DENIAL.

As I've already said, if you or anyone else can direct me to a REAL HYIP--now that you understand the concept--I'm all ears. Or, if you can show me one that has a legitimate business model and is registered properly, I'll be the first one in! P2P is NONE of the above.

Mark

I am not at anything again, I know what you said. Again you basing it all on theorys and speculation.
I don't need to google anything, I know how most of the sites work and I have been involved just as long if not longer than you and way more indepth. I have been in touch with many admins and seen the ins and outs. I was going to start my own program but couldn't come up with a good enough plan because I won't run a ponzi.
There are many programs that had good intentions but failed before the plan went in to action. I think some of the reasoning was because they thought they could start as a ponzi and when it got bigger the plan would go into effect. I think because of sites like asa and all the advertising people did, some of them grew way to quick and collapsed before the admin knew what happened. It's harder than anyone thinks to start it up this way. Then of course there is the pure scams and pure ponzis. There were a couple great admins that lost everything because their broker took off with everyones money. They had a solid business going before that and they were left broke themselves.
But thats not p2p. That is all the other crappy hyips and surfs and such any of us have been in NDA or not.

On p2p you can call it denial if you want but as long as they keep paying I will live happily in my denial

You guys are bunch sick people that don't have anything todo. Why you try to bring the program down that has been helping so many people. Why you don just get in and get some. Let Nick do his job by helping a lot of people. Everytime you see poor people getting better live YOU guys try to STOP it, you are like that goverment that I don't want to say. And come out saying: I am helping you. helping my ass..you stick people are giving poor people up the ass all the time by calling so you say goverment to kill the program, you are bunch of evil people. Get a life. If you know better why not get a better life.
THANK YOU>>>GET LIFE

Is it now? Ok so why don't you give the ND SEC a call and see if they side with MY speculation or your facts? Why don't you call the OSC and RCMP as well and see what they think of my speculation.

Look I'm sorry you are seeing your little cash cow vanish before your eyes but it's no need to act so over the edge, this thing was never legal to begin with or nothing anybody here or in any gov't office could say or do would bring it down.. the sooner you accept the facts the sooner the healing can begin for you.

Oh BTW you planning to put an offer in on MCF hehe.. another scammer heading for the hills





If Nick was running a legal company with legit investments, NOTHING anybody here or anywhere else said or did could cause it any harm.. more so if it was in fact legit and he proved it with the proper documents etc.. he would have a lot more people willing to invest and help those out that need it. So your argument my friend is not with the people here that you call "sick" but rather with Nick he is unable to and/or unwilling to register his business and prove it's legality.

Why don't you guys go after all this surfing and clubs, and investment pro. around this forum. That are robing people left and right. MMG should just STOP all this BS around here, because we all know that nonethem are true and real company. Just tell me which one in this forum that is real. So shut a F. up. Enjoy what you get now. Or go somewhere else to make money. How about the USA market and around the world! Are they honest, how about those market makers! are they honest?NO. They rob you everyday, but nobody does anything, so they can do it and od it. kill you take your money and run. Take look how the market works, is that any diference what you see in this HYIP? NO. If you trade, you klnow it. And if you don't trade, don't talk. Market Makers have license to take your money and run and the license was gave by who!
STOP BS!

Camidu64, I don't speak for the others but I am here because P2P has been running for a while and therefore many people will end up losing a lot of money.

There aren't enough hours in the day to watch all of the surfs and pyramid scams. If people can't figure out that they are scams, there isn't much anyone can do.

As cvkint said, there is nothing any of us can say or do to "bring down" P2P or any program. If they are legitimate, they will stand the test of time.

You should direct your anger at the operators of these scam programs and not at those of us who speak out against them. WE are NOT the bad guys!

Mark

ANOTHER SCAM SITE

I quite agree with you there are likely less than 1% of all companies operating on the net that are legit. The net would be a much safer place if places like TG and MMG and DTM etc..etc, were held accountable for allowing these things to be promoted and they cover themselves with their little disclaimers...I imagine at some point someone will get mad enough and take them to court or name them in a suit and some judge will change the laws needed to hold them accountable but until that time we have to play the hands we are dealt.

I can only speak for myself but I only bother with programs that I have friends and family in to help protect their interests or ones where people are trying to get me involved so I spend more time researching them... like P2P



First of all there are a lot more markets in the world to trade than the US. Secondly market makers don't have any effect on the futures markets that are traded electronically and you would know that if you traded futures. There are market makers in many equity markets and you are quite right they do have a license to print/steal money in many cases, but you know what? So what.. that is the law, they are legally doing what the gov't and exchanges allow them to do. If you want to have the laws changed then I encourage you work towards that goal. I think we all agree cheerleaders and naysayers alike that there are too many laws and too many restrictive laws when it comes to wealth creation more so in the US, but until those laws are changed we either have to live by them or break them and deal with the fallout... those playing HYIPS have made their choice clear.

sec is being very co-operative in a sting to crack down on these crooks

As they should and not a minute too soon, it would surprise the cheerleaders in these scams how many times the programs are actually brought down because the SEC or NFA etc, have a mole as a member in the program so they are totally up to date on everything that happens...

I really think all of you are beating a dead horse here. There is nothing new from either side. I read this stuff every couple of days and it is just basically repeated info.... from all sides.


I also noticed that the "bank" never happened. It was to be on line in 90 days over a year ago. He should just remove it until it is actually within days of being available.

I know a couple of people in this program. I found this site doing research before possibly joining.

My question(s)...

Anyone in here still owed for any time before June?
Anyone in here still owed for June?
Anyone in here still owed for July?

I do not care what the answer is.... I am just looking for real information.

Thanks!

According to the MCF forum, payouts are up to June 17th. That would make them 43 business days behind as of yesterday. TOS state that payouts will be made in 5-10 business days.

To answer your questions further, no one should be owed before June but everyone would still be owed for the remainder of June and all of July.

If you get in now, I would plan in advance on losing your entire deposit. The delay in payouts is getting longer instead of shorter.

Mark

I guess now that Kent has made it clear he's taking off, many more of the cheerleaders are coming to realize it's all about to blow up for good. I hear that MCF is even up for sale, any takers here? If you want your own personal ready made cult go for it.

The more interesting thing here is the study in human nature as to how long some of the cheerleaders will actually hold on to the belief things are ok and it's all going to work out. Or even more startling in this blame game they will start how the naysayers caused this or the big bad gov't took them down to stop the little guy from getting ahead, they will trot out anything to avoid blaming the real people responsible and part of that blame has to lay with them.

It would in reality be a very foolish if not down right stupid person that would invest for the first time in this failed ponzi.

What is MCF?

Also, I was trying to get through the Liberty Reserve maze. Any recs on the provider to use to fund my account? (maybe I should not put this here as it is not to do with P2P- sorry for any offense).

MCF = mxyxcxasxhxfxoxrxuxmx . COM

I guess I lucked out on this one because I was going to deposit a good chunk in ou of some advice from a member.

I admit my 2-3 week period of ignorance on this particular program. I haven't been following this one during the month of August.

Could someone please be so kind as to tell me what the current, average payout "waiting time" is now with P-2-P? Has it significantly increased? Remained the same? Decreased?

Thanks. I just don't feel like wading through the past 20-30 pages at this time.

Last I heard a day or so ago they just hit the 60 calendar day mark... so yeah right on target within the terms.. I believe it's somewhere in the 44 business day range.. also worth noting there has been an official warning about this scam from the North Dakota SEC/AG which of course explains the lack of icon filled happy face posts saying how everything is peachy...

But everything is peachy
We come in here and say how happy we are and all you want to do is try and argue with everyone that is a happy member. You repeat yourself constantly. What is the point to argue with ignorance? You not a member, that was your choice. We will continue to be members and be happy for our decisions, those that are not happy have the choice to get out. Weather we post or not you will continue to keep reporting the same speculated junk. I don't care what you have to say, I am a happy member that is making money and will continue to do so

peachy!

peachy!

peachy!

Thanks for the response.

Now...if only I could figure out why everyone appears to be so excited about a 60 day waiting period. A payout waiting period increase of that magnitude and members are still flipping their thumbs up.

Maybe a lot has happened while I've been away for 2-3 weeks...and "waiting" for your payout is the new "cool trend" or "in" thing with HYIPs?

Ryz, the ones that are happy have made money in P2P. There are those that have not made money and they are not happy. Withdraw request pay out date is June 18, 2008 and it was paid out on August 18, 2008! I hope this helps.

I hope everyone gets paid too!

I made a request on June 19th for a payout and it is August 19th today and no payout received to date.

Waiting for what was to be paid 5-10 business days ago, just left my funds in limbo, not earning anythign for 2 months now, while I wait for my 300 dollars. This is how they stretch the funds...

Wait for my money? It is obvious they are not delivering as promised. There is more news about the bank.
I do know first hand that is is difficult to establish an offshore bank, or capital management license. When doing this, so much has to be held in a trust account, and until the government gives the green light, one has to wait to open the doors of the bank. Debit card companies can be done in 6 months to a year. They can't be created like we can create a webpage. There is lots of bureaucracy to deal with.

No matter, I want my money as promised. This is plain wrong.

yo

I made a request for payment on June 19 as well, but I 'm going to wait as the rest of the gang. I know that the payments are real slow, But they happened nearly everyday last week. I'm not going to complain if I never get another nickel from P2P for I have already received over 7 times my investment already.
From what I'm reading many that are posting in this thread are not members of P2P or they would not be posting "I heard this or I heard that." If they were a member of P2P they could get into the private forum that has been developed and get more factual information. Others that are slamming this program got in early with a small investment, rolled it over until they maxed out, requested another account, maxed it out and then maxed out an account for their wife or children. So they have been knocking down over 50K per month for a while and know they want to whine. You got rich off P2P, so give the guy a break. You never complained when you were banking the big bucks from an investment of less than $100. Do you know of another program that has done so much good with so little input from it's members?
Shame !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha what you will notice is that the ONLY happy posts are either from a very select few trying to pretend all is ok and your usual one post wonders trying to drum up that last bit of support. The vast majority of the people that used to come in here and tell everyone how great P2P is have moved on to other scams, or simply don't want to rock the boat for fear of having their numbers on a screen taken away from them.

Plus lets face it anyone in this scam now is in, no sense in worrying about not much they can do they are either in profit or they're not but nothing they SAY will change that. So they just ride this one until it's finally shut down.



Nice try but the private forum is NOT private.. we all know members dying to get their money and wishing they could put this sham behind them that are more than happy to give us access to the "private" forum.

As with everything p2P related there are NO facts.. just more excuses.



I have only ever seen ONE person claim to have received 50k in ONE single payment I would love somebody ANYBODY to show proof of anyone seeing 50k per month.. very very unlikely, oh Nick and his band of con men will tell you that, so will the referral whores trying to get your money but as with all things P2P proof is nowhere to be found.



Sure CEP, PIPS, Swiss Cash, 12DP, Legisi, they all did so much good for so little input until they were proven to be the scams they were, just like P2P.

"Never invest more than you can afford to lose" then you won't be so disappointed .