If p2p is a ponzi, what makes the noobs so special to exclude them from the craps table?
The "naysayers" can "educate" them(especially if that is the basis for their intervention), but it is what it is.

I think most of us know it is a gambling den by now.

If anybody would like to "handhold" the noobs and "protect" them from Nick, you are free to do so.

I don't think it's any place for bleeding hearts-- bleeding hearts should proceed to their local inner city and volunteer at the soup kitchen.

Interesting words from a poster that has a warning about a scam in their sig.. what makes that scam more important to educate people about than this one???

Yes most do but as long as people like Nick lie and pretend it's something that it's not there will be people hurt that do NOT know the rules...

I don't think anybody is doing any hand holding, this is a discussion forum, this topic is about P2P that means the good, bad and the ugly... it would seem the only people that don't like to allow the "naysayers" to speak their point of view are those that are too deep in and are afraid that somehow they will impact the outcome..

Ok, not sure I follow that last bit, but whatever works for ya

I had "first-hand" knowledge and proof of the scam in my sig because I chose to do a little digging.

You are free to do as you like in this thread just as I am free to express my own views. I am not one of your so-called "sheep" that you like to spout off now and then.

I believe that all viewpoints are valid as long as they fall within the forum rules.

Hey right back atcha trader jody

Exactly as I have done in this one...]

Which oddly enough the MODs agree with you, but the cheerleaders/sheep/zealots DO NOT..they feel if we don't have anything nice to say we should not be in this thread.. kinda funny really..

I must ask as you're the fifth or sixth person to do so in this thread, what is with the desire to mention my name? I am very easy to find on the net and not hiding from anyone, a simply search would actually bring up my home address as I am a registered financial adviser, but I am curious why people do that? Is it some sort dig to let me know that they know who I am or something? It's always stuck me as odd... as I use the same nick in every single forum but this one, because that nick was banned I can't even remember why I'll have to figure that out someday

So, How does Nick do it?
How can he be paying 2%, 3% on an investment, thats 600%+ p/a to 15k investors.
What is he getting on his money, and how? where?
If this has been going for a year now, he must own a country somewhere, a successful one.

I don't beleive that even a fistful of casinos would give that kind of return. The BIG picture is that either he has struck the motherload somewhere and really wants to share, or the 15k is a very inflated figure.

.......?




Anybody?

My opinion is that he relies on the new investors to pay out the old. In short, he cant make 60-80 percent per month and do it legally. If he could really do this he would be the richest person on the planet in a matter of a few short years starting off with little of anything. Its just common sense. He wont close to new members because he needs that fresh cash coming in all of the time yet he calls his program "private".

Its your call but I would not join knowing what I know.

Oh Oh, pick me pick me.. I say..... The Catholic Church???

Hey they are a lot like Nick, depending on what version of the FAQ you read you get a different ending.




Did you actually read this before you posted it? I mean take a second now to read it, I'll wait......................ok, it doesn't actually say a damn thing... read it again.

They don't need to do anything with your funds... but they have already piggy backed them, so they did something... in the case they decide to "work" some of the funds then they could possibly be spread over our portfolio.. but wait a sec they are all being piggy backed... or is that worked...or what the hell does that even mean? Seriously talk to any investment adviser on the planet and see if they can figure out what that double talk it meant to say...

Why do people want to know how Nick does it, and want the details? As it has been proved over and over again, if the admin of some site tells you he makes money by such and such a method, are you so gullible to believe it? There was a site where the admin did just that, and guess what, he has dissappeared and nobody is getting paid.

Personally I don't care how he does it, as long as he does and I get paid.

I can only answer for myself but I don't care about the details of what Nick "claims" to do I simply want to see some proof of him doing anything.. he clearly is breaking the compliance laws in Canada consult any lawyer there to find out.. so as long as he can't prove he is operating legally I wouldn't accept a penny from him in payments...

If the critics of this program are correct in their assumptions that P2P is on the verge of crumbling and that Nick is about to make his getaway with all the money, and that this is a Ponzi.?

Then answer me this,

'cvkint", did you not post some time back just after you spoke with Nick and when you were looking at this program, that you were interested in getting involved with Nick with a large amount of funds, and Nick refused to accept them from you,? as he said he only wanted to deal with smaller amounts to help the small investor.
(Correct me if i am wrong, but that was the impression i got from your post back then?)

So, could that be why maybe you have a sort of personal thing in for Nick here,? as you seem to be way too involved in this thread, and the future fortunes of P2P to just be an outside passive observer.

Otherwise, maybe its just your business is slow these days and you need to keep yourself occupied, and trying to be be the saviour for others, thats possible too.

Can I ask a personal question ? Where do you buy your food and clothes ?

Donnie,

Not sure why you would think anything would change.. there are only two sides to this, those that know/believe it's a scam and will fail at some point and those that believe it's real....

Those the believe it's real fall into three categories, the first knows it's a scam and are just milking it for all it's worth and picking up referral fees along the way and don't care one way or the other what happens as they are in the black and the longer it runs the more free money they pick up.. the second group aren't sure if it's legit or not but as long as they are involved they want to keep it all positive until they are in the black and then some will just quietly ride it until it ends some will walk away to find the next latest greatest thing around... the last group are the true believers that won't listen to any logic and will take any logical point and twist it around to try and pretend it's not a worthwhile point.. this is the group that when this thing finally folds up will be running around screaming how it was a good legal program right up until the end and that the negative members and naysayers are what made it fail, etc... then when the gov't steps in to mop the mess they will blame the big bad gov't etc..etc.. they are actually the scariest group.. now that group either goes on to become hard core HYIP players vowing to never get burned again and learning the ropes or they become the most militant of the naysayers....

The naysayers also usually fall into a couple of groups.. the ones that have been burned before and make it their life mission to bring down any and every program out there that they deem to be a scam, they are right more often than not but in the process they become so single minded it usually burns them out.. the other naysayers are the ones that have friends and family involved in a given program and once they do a little research they see what appears to them to be a massive fraud and as such they do everything they can to get their friends out and to warn others before they get caught up...

it's always funny watching these things play out as you can see all the same old players and same old signs happening time and time again... P2P will fail, nobody can predict exactly when but all it takes is some common sense.. it can't be legit, making the returns they claim, if that was the case and Nick was investing as he is for the 10 or 20 years he claims, he would be the richest man on earth many times over again.. he's a con and will be found out in due time... meanwhile both sides will play their part, point their fingers and when it's all said and done everyone will move on to the next stage for them and we will either meet up in that thread or lose touch until our paths cross again...

It would seem to me that that graph and what it presumably shows--that ponzi-type schemes collapse when they run out of pigeons--applies to ponzi schemes, but may not apply to 'legitimate' programs based in some type of outside investment.

I am not pleased that we have been told little about the type of investment, apart from a reference to investment in casinos. I agree that Nick should not be expected to share his specific investments, however he should be willing to discuss the types of investments he is involved with.

I am sick to death of this crap about it's invested in Casinos. To begin with, most of the casinos of the world are held by either indian tribes or public corporations. Since Nick is not claiming (yet anyhow) to be a Hopi Indian, and is not a member of the ruling family of Monaco (one of the few privetely held casinos), let's just assume he is a major shareholder of one of the publicly held casinos. Which one? If he's a major shareholder, (more than 5%) he MUST be listed on the SEC reports of ownership, he's not, I checked, not on ANY publicly held company that holds a license to operate a casino anywhere on earth. And who thinks that Casinos are a such profitable companies anyhow??? The largest, MGM Mirage Inc., had 2007 revenues of a bit over $7 Billion (not a large company in the grand scheme of things) and operating profit of about $1.4 billion, so assuming Nick owned less than 5% of the shares (we know he doesn't own more, look at the 10K report on SEC.gov) he would be entitlted to 5% of the profit or $70 Million....umm, but wait, that's not right either. See, companies don't go every day at noon and do a set of financial reports and then divvy up the day's profit amongst the shareholders (the don't even do it on every business day, 14 days behind), they report quarterly and even then they don't distribute all the profits, they declare a didvidend, which is paid quarterly also, MGM, like many companies, doesn't pay any didvidends so the "profit" is all re-invested and if you want yours you have to sell your stake and take the capitol gains.

Do a little real DD kids, he ain't invested in any casinos.

Do a little real DD kids, he ain't invested in any casinos.

Of course he isn't... he's not part of any investors group that holds shares in 8 off shore casinos.. the people that believe this tripe are just too simple for words. Even if was part of a shell company somewhere that held shares in a Casino as you rightly stated the profits don't get paid out in the fashion that Nick makes payments... I have been down this road before with the sheep, they are so badly wanting to believe they will completely ignore all logic common sense and facts..

You know that at least one sheep is going to follow your post and say something to the effect of oh yeah.. well maybe you look for his name but he's investor under an LLC name or something like that... Ok lets say he is... now do your DD kids, check the public records and find the single most profitable Casino in the world (here's a hint it's not in Vegas) now check their financial reports for the last year (all Casino's other the Monaco one mentioned are publicly held companies so their records are obtainable) figure out EXACTLY what their NET operating profits were, cross check that against how many shareholders they have again public records are available and determine what "Nick's" share of the profits would be... of course once you check and see they only paid XX amount in dividends every quarter and in some cases don't pay dividends it's actually held as shareholder equity.... there is no way on earth that Nick is earning even the money he claims to be paying people in P2P in the way he says he is.

Keep in mind that he is claiming that the P2P people are "piggy backing" on his investments (which btw is also crap, no such thing) so the money he would be earning would have be at least a certain amount larger than the P2P money... none of it adds up, but when you "want" to believe you will find a way to suspend your logic meter.

The whole piggy backing thing is such nonsense too.. I mean explain to me how this works.. Nick's Super Secret Investing Society owns let's say 1 million shares in Joe's Casino... those shares are bought and paid for, they give the broker a million bucks they get (for the sake of round numbers) 1 million shares... how exactly does he "piggy back" YOUR money on that? The shares are bought and paid for, unless he buys more shares (unlikely as there is a limit to how many shares are issued, plus that would not be piggy backing anyway) how does he manage to get MORE from those shares already bought and paid for than every other owner of the shares?

The reality is that ANYBODY with even a tiny little bit of knowledge about markets and accounting etc, know that every word that Nick vomits forth about his investment is total BS.. why the people buying this don't care about the facts is really their cross to bear.. but it is funny to see the total nonsense they will swallow.

Well nate let me commend you for at least attempting to talk factually about the program, but I think the above comment really show what your issue is.. it's all about the money right? Your entire argument seems to well people made money... but you don't have one iota of proof that more has gone out than come in, so your logic is totally flawed, you are told that is the case so you believe it, but you are doing so on blind faith.



No I don't have to admit that, why should I? Nate if someone had come to you a month before 12DP or CEP a host of other programs failed and said well there is the proof it's paying out more than it's taken in would YOU have just blindly agreed that to be true? Based on what? I see NOTHING that shows any indication that this is anything but a Ponzi everything about it is looking more and more like a run of the mill Ponzi every day...



I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm NOT mad about anything I wonder what it is about the true believers like yourself that believe just because someone is able to look at something objectively and see things in a "different" light that somehow makes them angry? I think it's a common tact for the believers I just don't follow why.



Exactly, thanks for at least admitting that. Payouts are proof of payouts, nothing more nothing less...



But I would NOT be able to keep or enjoy that money, whether CEP like lawsuits happened or not as soon as this fails and it comes to light that it was always the scam/ponzi that many of us believe all that money would be tainted and made 100% from others, the problem being MANY of them are in this believing all the lies Nick tells.. if everybody was in this knowing it was simply a money shell game so we all were on equal footing that would be quite a different thing..but it's not that way...so sorry that money holds no interest for me.



As stated payments are proof of payments nothing more....



Nate I'll pretend you are seriously asking this question and you want an answer so here goes... I WOULD admit he created something good if there was a SINGLE piece of proof to show that to be the case. Not only is there no proof but NOTHING Nick does matches up with what he says.. his lies just the ones he's been blatantly called on are well known so lets not rehash them.. but just for one minute think about this whole thing some objectivity.

If all the stuff Nick claims is true, why won't/can't he show proof of any of it? But more importantly if his goal was to help all the "little guys" like he claims why only help people online that at least have internet access and computers and most likely are a lot better off that millions of others in the world.. but more than that, why restrict his help to new people via referrals and treat them like mushrooms. I can't come up with a single logical reason why he would not be screaming from the mountaintops in order to help as many people possible on the planet.. you see that is where the whole "nick is a man of charity" line breaks down that is NOT how people that devote their lives to Philanthropy behave.

Of course I'll get roasted again for responding to you or repeating some of the points made above etc... but I have been in the financial game for a long time, I've had winners and losers in my portfolio I've dealt with a lot of fund manages and VC players but NONE of them NOT ONE behaved like Nick does, because REAL multi millionaires do NOT play online HYIPS and MLM's for years and use free webhosts and fail at everything, and they don't announce their new earth shaking ground breaking financial vehicle on the MMG forum (no offense intended)

You forget I spoke to Nick on the phone he was clueless he had no idea about simple financial terms that anybody that was worth a million bucks would know, he was not able to answer a single direct question, but rather he attempted to change the subject and try to baffle me with his little "I'm a good ol boy just helping the needy" line of crap. I've talked to MANY "Nicks" over the years, to be quite honest with you he is not even a very good con man..I mean he knows how to build his little following but a really good con would involve him knowing how to get the big money and really deal on a whole new level but his level of knowledge about finances was so pitiful I ended my phone call with him baffled as to how a soul believed anything he said.. then it struck me as to why he was not going public... he would be ripped to shreds.. instantly

Thanks for the attempt at being civil Nate, you don't have to take my word for it you can and will believe what you want I totally accept that.. but at least have the backbone to discuss the reasons why I believe what I do and the facts and third party info that is out there instead of the novice "He paid" as your entire point of view.

Good luck.

Payouts are right now on the edge. Cant Nick do any better? Oh, this is a ponzi program i forgot It will get worse from here. Get out NOW if you can. Nick is a con man imo and he is prepping you for his great escape. Get out NOW> THey dont need new investors anyway now do they.

While doing your "real dd", what name were you looking for on the SEC report of ownership or any other report? Just because you may not find "Nicholas Smirnow" or "P2P Network", doesnt mean anything. In fact, Nick says he's part of a group of investors, so that group (whatever the name may be) could be what is listed.

JMO

Have a nice day with all the continuing predictions, and I will continue to work the program for as long as it lasts to continue my profit.

Layton

The names listed on a 10K or 10Q report are not allowed to be trusts or corporations, they must be the real names of natural humans.



And when it does collapse, I'll be sure to inform everyone I can shout to that YOU can be sued to recover their losses, assuming you and the loser are both in the US. You're really in a stickle here Layton, you're real name and info is in a public record from the CEP case and you've surely crossed the line to be legally considered to be promoting this scam, which under US law would make anyone in the US who loses money in P2P to simply state they relied in whole or in part upon your offered opnions to invest, BANGO, you're what a liability lawyer would call "exposed". Don't worry just yet, but when it collapses I'll be sure to remind everyone.....all it would take is for someone to be able to prove they visited you chat room, information easy to verify on their computers. You've publicly owned up to getting big money out, surely there's a lawyer out there willing to come take it away from you, remember, they typically get a third of what they recover.

OMG u guys &^%$ i hate coming here to read anything. this am sure will be my last time here at at this thread >> EVER !! and i mean EVER u 4 i have seen over the past 2 years come in to program threads and creat Fear to anyone and everone who even thinks of joining or even try to read about these programs. you make your statements about how everyone is going to lose big time very soon and that it's all over ECT. ECT. no mater how long it takes for the program to come to an end 1 year two years, u still will be here saying it so in hopes one day u can say i told u so. u make coming to these threads the worst part of my day. i wont be back to read your TRASH !!!

But are you sure that the money is even in a US bank, but as I said, I am enjoying the money and you are not, so eat your heart out, and every thing you are predicting has not happened yet, so until it does become official, just sing your continual song, does it really get to you that some are making good money and you are not. I dont really care what you and everyone else predict, as long as it lasts, I will enjoy the benefits while you are on the outside looking and wishing you were in.

Layton

And when it does collapse, I'll be sure to inform everyone I can shout to that YOU can be sued to recover their losses, assuming you and the loser are both in the US. You're really in a stickle here Layton, you're real name and info is in a public record from the CEP case and you've surely crossed the line to be legally considered to be promoting this scam, which under US law would make anyone in the US who loses money in P2P to simply state they relied in whole or in part upon your offered opnions to invest, BANGO, you're what a liability lawyer would call "exposed". Don't worry just yet, but when it collapses I'll be sure to remind everyone.....all it would take is for someone to be able to prove they visited you chat room, information easy to verify on their computers. You've publicly owned up to getting big money out, surely there's a lawyer out there willing to come take it away from you, remember, they typically get a third of what they recover.

You sound like a broken record Layton that knows this program needs new investors to keep up your large payouts.

The names listed on a 10K or 10Q report are not allowed to be trusts or corporations, they must be the real names of natural humans.

But are you sure that the money is even in a US bank, but as I said, I am enjoying the money and you are not, so eat your heart out, and every thing you are predicting has not happened yet, so until it does become official, just sing your continual song, does it really get to you that some are making good money and you are not. I dont really care what you and everyone else predict, as long as it lasts, I will enjoy the benefits while you are on the outside looking and wishing you were in.

Layton

I don't care where the money is at, YOU are in the USA and that money can be gotten to by a good forensic accountant, I did it for a living for 12 years, you have no idea how hard it is to really hide large amounts of money short of burying it in the back yard.

And for the record, the last prediction I made was in May of 2006 when I posted that CEP would soon crash, a receiver would be appointed, who would then use the very complete CEPT records to recover the ill gotten gains. of the people who were in profit. I'll stick by that one, I think.

And for the record, the last prediction I made was in May of 2006 when I posted that CEP would soon crash, a receiver would be appointed, who would then use the very complete CEPT records to recover the ill gotten gains. of the people who were in profit. I'll stick by that one, I think.

Payouts are right now on the edge. Cant Nick do any better? Oh, this is a ponzi program i forgot It will get worse from here. Get out NOW if you can. Nick is a con man imo and he is prepping you for his great escape. Get out NOW> THey dont need new investors anyway now do they.

That was CEP and 2006, don't you think they've already learned how to go about it by now? Like I said, times are different. I hate to say this but this industry's a dog-eats-dog world now. It is so not the same anymore.

And why, are you hoping to get the "receiver" position if and when this program gets busted? Yeah, that'll be the time you can tell us "I make money and you don't"... but until then, we make money and you don't.

Yeah, times sure are different because now you are making money from the money you stole from others.

Oh BOO-HOO! Get over it! Mine was a game from the beginning, and you know it.

And this is not the thread to discuss this.

If you were an accountant for twelve years, then you should know that you have to find it first, and if you have it in the right place, then you have a Sovernity issue to get around.

Layton

That was CEP and 2006, don't you think they've already learned how to go about it by now? Like I said, times are different. I hate to say this but this industry's a dog-eats-dog world now. It is so not the same anymore.

And why, are you hoping to get the "receiver" position if and when this program gets busted? Yeah, that'll be the time you can tell us "I make money and you don't"... but until then, we make money and you don't.

Nick is probably opening many hyip, he has "team" to make them.
I mean, he is probably opening a lot of scams!
p2p is the only one that he wants to take open and working.

Nick is probably opening many hyip, he has "team" to make them.
I mean, he is probably opening a lot of scams!
p2p is the only one that he wants to take open and working.

Actually, I don't think they've "learned how to go about it by now" and as for Nick, he doesn't seem like he's learned much since the discovery of fire. Looking at him from outside the cult, he doesn't strike me as being as smart as your average doorknob.
I no longer practice accounting and have no desire to be a reciever, I do however develop anti fraud education programs for non-profits mostly geared towards helping people who are assuming control of their parents assets when the parents are no longer able to.

I leave just one you thought to ponder...

Legitimate Financial companies are huge concerns, they spend billions on their coporate images and so on, they are very protective of their intellectual property and reputations. Given that, why on earth would a real investment company risk their reputation by advertising in a place that caters to HYIPs, even if they were legit? The very fact that a program is mentioned on MMG, Talk Gold etc is proof that could in some circumstances hold up in a court of law that a program is a scam. Anyone with any knowledge of banking beyond how to balance a checkbook should see this.
The law, in pretty much the whole of North America, Europe and Asia requires that in general if you take money from the public (defined as anyone you don't know, in groups larger than 35 persons) you have to provide susbstantial proof of what you are doing with it, who you are, how you are qualified to handle it and how it is spent BEFORE you take any money in. There are no such things as NDAs or secret financial transactions, bank debentures etc...it's all BS. There is not on the whole of MMG TG, ASA etc... one single legitimate investment program, just tens of thousands of scams, period. The only people who participate are fools and thieves, so which are you?

Trust me, I know it will end soon but until then, I will enjoy the ride and just make money.

I disagree with that, I look at these online HYIPs/Investment/Autosurfs as games, a sort of gambling... Some people just enjoy the game.

I'm saying that Nick is paying p2p members with the money he took from other scam hyip websites.
His team is opening scam hyips everyday.