hi---main prob with the analogy is that when I walk into a casino I know I am gambling not investing--And so does everyone else that walks in----it aint called Caesar's Palace Investment Club

P2P is being promoted as an investment not a gambling venture.

[quote name='wwind3' date='Mar 7 2008, 01:33 PM' post='4733157']
hi---main prob with the analogy is that when I walk into a casino I know I am gambling not investing--And so does everyone else that walks in----it aint called Caesar's Palace Investment Club

P2P is being promoted as an investment not a gambling venture.


True enough, but no matter what it is called it is a gamble no matter what it is called.

Layton

And there´s another big difference that those who pretend to care for newbies are not able to see.
Most countries in the world make casinos "legal" because govs get nice amounts from them.
That will make them inmediately "legal" no matter how many people lose while others earn from those losing.

And here we have people saying... "the sky is falling,... let´s save the world and newbies!!" while govs desperately try to get their piece of the pie irregardless of the ponzi concept.

This happens everywhere in this wonderful world.

Have a good day everyone!

First off, I am neither pro nor con in this, just a person trying to do some DD and would appreciate answers from both sides of the 'fence'. So please don't flame me. If you don't know the answer either don't post or just say so. You don't have to cut me down, just say you don't know.

There are right now, only 3 issues I want to work out. They are 1) site legality (OSC) 2) energy bank legality and 3) who is Nick.

1) site legality. Here is a copy of the OSC's definition of securities. Can you tell me which one applies to P2P based on the FAQs that are on the site. The facts state that members money is NOT being invested into anything, just that he pays members their percents from profits being generated by his investments.


2) energy bank legality. Some have said it will need to be licensed to do business in whatever state they will be transferring money to. It is my understanding based on the FAQs that it will not be a transmitter of money, like PayPal and Egold, but it will be used solely to send members money. Members will not be able to fund, only withdraw from it. Of course, this is real basic info gleaned from the FAQs as it has not launched yet, I am sure more details will follow. But since this does not fall into money transmitter category, why will it need to be licensed?

3) Who is Nick? I have searched and searched, and I have found nothing but forum postings (and blog postings) about Nikolai (Nick and Nicolas) Smirnow. It seems to me, that if he is a multi millionaire with incredible investing techniques (associated with other multi millionaires) there would be something somewhere about him. A newspaper article, on a list of millionaires... something. Can anyone give me some links to sites (other than forums and blogs) that will tell me who Nick is?

Thanks for not killing me. I just want to know....
l\/l

Layton, Why are you getting mad with me? I respect you. I realize P2P is doing great now and I wish all of the members the best. I said that in my earlier post.

I do not post a lot here because of the treatment received.

I just asked cvkint a few questions.

I am just doing my DD as you suggested. I would be willing to risk some money if I knew for sure when I make a withdraw I would be able to keep the money and not pay it back! USA laws cause all kind of problems.

My friend that joined P2P only lives 3 or 4 miles from me. We have been in lots of stuff together and we will continue to be friends. He looks out for me and I look out for him.

I realize this is gambling! Who knows I may gamble with $100. I know $100 will not make me or break me. I will continue to follow P2P to see how it performs!

I also said in my earlier post I did not know if P2P would shut down or not? I am not crying over money I lost because I knew the risk. Just look at the number of post I make at MMG forum. I was just trying to see what I could find out about P2P for one of my good friends. No more no less.

Maybe this will help you understand where I am coming from.

Donnie

Sorry Donnie, I was not mad at you, it was just that I precieved that you were just here as a non invested member and just bringing up what is readily availiable, Further more I am not going to proclaim whether it is legal or not, some say it is, some say it isnt, it is all how you interpet they way the various GOV sites interpet it. As for whether it is worth losing or making a profit, all I can say is that at this point they are performing and it has worked very well fir me, and I am in very good profit, and I wiil ride it and enjoy it as long as possable with no regrets at all. After all I am like most, I get in to make aprofit and that is all.

Layton




First off, the Energy Bank and the Debit Cards are not even an issue right now, they have been coming for almost a year now, so until they are factual, they are a non issue. Now, as for the OFC, it is is up to you as to how you want to interpit whether P-2-P is legal. I just am enjoying the benefits as long as they last.

Layton

OK wwind...enough is enough!!! You've had your say, more than once, I might add, so
give it a rest! You don't want us members to praise the program because you naysayers
think its a scam, and want proof. Well give me your proof that Nick is NOT who he says he is!!!! It works both ways, you know!

You also feel you have a right to your opinions, well, I beg to differ. You are breaking one of the rules here.

Here it is, in case you don't know it:

No Trolling
Stating your opinion and trolling are different things. If you are bringing a constant and negative attitude to the forums by continually posting the same repetitive information, we will consider it trolling. Do not spread lies and rumors and if you believe something is a scam or someone is not telling the truth then please post the proof to back up your statement. Determination of trolling is at the sole discretion of MMG Staff.

We all know how you feel about the program....you've made it quite clear. I don't know what your agenda is here. It seems everytime I come in here, you're parked below, just waiting to pounce on anything positive. I find it hard to believe that you're here simply to save all the newbies that don't know any better.
I was a newbie once, myself, and no one saved me. I learned the hard way, as I'm sure most of us have, so all your talk won't do any good. People will still do what they want to do.

So if you want to continue on this way, why don't you go to Talk Gold. You will have a lot of company there, but MMG is better than that!

Hello Layton,

Thanks for understanding. I hope all of the members of P2P make lots of money. I am glad you made money Layton. I am sure not an expert on programs! If I was I would be making money and just sharing it with close friends. LOL

Hello Treebartt and good luck to you.

I will try to just read here and not post. It is better that way for me.

Everyone take care of yourself.

Donnie

Edit: It's fine to disagree but personal attacks will not be tolerated here.

Based on wwind's quotes you've provided above, I'm not seeing any "repetitive information." I'm seeing new information and explanations based on the same opinion, but that is perfectly fine. That is the definition of a debate, after all.

If this member begins to post derogatory comments or false facts, feel free to report his specific posts. However, provided this member does not step past those given guidelines, he is indeed entitled to his own opinion.

Finally, in the future, please refrain from posting jabs and jeers meant to belittle TalkGold and our other competitors. The Administration mentioned long ago that even though members have forum community preferences and "favorites," we desire for our community to maintain a professional stance. We do not want to give the impression to TalkGold (or any other forum) that we are trying to start a war.

Thank you for your understanding.


- Ryz

I have been in/around this industry since 2004. In my experience when people are doing DD and the programs members get offended because someone has some tough questions it scares me. I remember how I was slammed by YMMSS people, PIPs people, 12daily pro, etc..etc

Currently, I am doing some DD on this program. I wish I wasn't so busy the last year and heard of it earlier. But with these type of things I personally get really nervous about getting into something after it's been around a while. A program offering it's own processor? Seen that before and that didn't work out to well for me. I think I had like 100K in pips pay or pic pay whatever it was called that I was never able to touch.

As of now, I am not finished my DD on this so I wont go into details. I have heard some great things and some things that scare me. Once I am done digging. I will post here.

One thing that I would like to have cleared up is this: P2P accepts investments but never invest members money. He pays members based on company investments. Is this correct? Then why take investments? Is "Nick" that nice of a guy that he wants to make everyone money? I've heard tons of stories like this in the past...

Also this qoute by treebart:


This is a sad thing to see. MMG is a place to discuss both sides of the fence. We don't allow just one side of the fence. If someone is asking hard questions and program supporters aren't happy about it, that is a bad thing to see. A true quality program would have answers to anyones questions/comments/concerns. Not attack someone who has doubts.

Just be prepared, I will post my DD when I am finished. If it's bad it's bad. If it's good it's good. I know I can't make anyone do anything.

First of all, if you are promoting this program because you feel that strongly about it. You should have the answers to these questions. You have P2P in your siggy. So you are giving this program your endorsement. As a possible investor I read your post and no way would I want you as my sponsor. It's not my Job to prove who Nick is. You are putting your reputation on this company. So why can't you supply the answers to these questions? Calling someone a naysayer is just out played, someone asking questions about where he is investing his money is his right. Instead of trying to get answers you try to run someone out of a thread (or off of a site). This is scary and the first instinct I am having is YMMSS, PIPs, 12DP, etc..etc and we all know how those went...

As for myself, I am also vested, and also have it in my sig, that is the only place I have it, but if some one want info, I will tell them how it is performing for me as of today, I do not know what Nick does, and really could care less, as long as he continues to pay and perform, that is the bottom line to me.

Also in case any one care, My ach from Alert Pay showed up in my bank today, tis was the 5th day, and also a result of being paid from P-2-P.

Layton

I can live with an answer like this. My problem is someone asking a question and being told they are a naysayer, troll, etc..etc

Yoda

Hi Wwind3, i spent my money on advertising* to give others the same opportunity i luckly found! Eventually inactive members will be deleted*

I am very surprised to read all these things about the program posted in this forum

if members want to find about Nick's identity , why don't they try to contact him directly and ask him? I would be happy to know the answers myself

I am new to this program but I want to feel secure here, and not to be afraid of some kind

of misfortune because of this program as some people say

I read all the comments and I wish somebody will give some sincere information, either
the webmaster or his staff

mary

The problem I am seeing--

is that the "naysayers" don't want the program promoted on this MMG thread due to whatever strong beliefs that they harbor pointing to P2P being a scam. Thus their need to "save" or "educate" or whatever noble agenda they do possess(or possibly some vested interest--I'd like to think the former).



Just my .02


The critics must also try to understand that those who promote honestly believe Nick S. is the real deal.

This is the prevailing reality in many a thread not just in MMG but other boards for any other number of investment progs out there.

I understand this but here's my question. Why do they believe Nick? Because he's paid so far? I can point to tons of programs that paid for over a year without a problem.

Personally, I am not a naysayer. A person I have known for years told me about this program. So I started doing DD. It's my money, I have that right.

The prevailing reality is the problem, and the reason why most people lose money time and time again. Some people put there rent money, grocery money, etc..etc because they believe. Only to then lose everything because of it. Considering , I haven't read this whole thread yet. Has anyone told people not to invest more then they can afford to lose? That use to the motto on MMG. Just like the first few pages of a thread were people doing "test spends" and posting DD for everyone to roll with.

Sure, I am a gambler by heart. If an admin tells me "this is a ponzi - i'll pay out as long as I have the funds" then that's fine by me. I can roll the dice and if I lose, I lose. No big deal. But whenever a program or it's members try to promote something as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. That it's the "real deal". Then I as well as other people have the right to ask questions. If you want to sell something as a true investment. Then you must be prepared for real questions. If you approach any "Angel Investor" they will ask the tough questions and not invest in your project until their questions are answered to satisfaction. Same thing goes here. This program is being promoted/talked about like it's the best thing ever. With that will come questions. When people attack anyone with a question like they are a troll or naysayer. That sends off alarm bells in my head.

I have just seen it to many times.

Now you might understand why I am cool with Layton's post. It's working for me so I told my friends. Hey, that's fine by me. But if you want to say "Nick's the real deal, prove otherwise" well that doesn't sit to well with me (or any possible investor). It's his/the promoters job to prove it to me.

Yoda

Fantastic explanation...if I do say so myself.

With any professional investment group- private or not- the burden of proof rests on the organization; NOT with the potential investor or researcher looking for answers. I can't believe how many investors and "gamblers" in the HYIP/autosurf industry turn a blind eye to this simple fact. Even worse, people who engage in DD are sometimes even shunned for professional business protocol?

Simply amazing... And certainly not in a good way...


(NOTE: I am speaking in "general;" not necessarily applying to just this individual topic and program)

- Ryz

Yes, unfortunately there is a lot of sterio typing, but it has been going on on all forums that I can remember. I got in early, in the upper 300's, low 400's, and then you almost had Nick on demand, I talked several times to him on the phone for 1 1/2 hrs at a time or more, he is a very eloquent and virbrant speaker. He has told me that he invests in 8 casinoes, and no he did not name names, and no he has not said any thing about Macau, that I believe is just assumed, He also said he is in real estate ventures, and again he did not mention any properties, and again there is no proof that he does any of it, just what he told me.

I only tell the truth or what has officially been told to me, I do not try to hyip up any thing and only can tell how the program has worked for me. I do not try to convince any one to join for the referral, if any one joins under me, I just appreciate it and consider it free grattus.

Layton

I understand your post.

My point is this is MMG..and when a program is posted..there will certainly be occasions of dilligence questions and scrutiny involved.

I'll leave that to the elements of the defending party--whether they want to address the questions or not.

Personally, I'm treating this as an hyip-- regardless if any claims contrary by program proponents.

It's my choice--out of many years of experience(1999) in this wretched corner of cyberspace.

I already have my principal back.I do not promote as is my choice.
I am in this program and will not pull out.

I personally even reserve some benefit of doubt for P2P.

There may be "bleeding hearts" out there who speak of saving the newbs or are just of a critical and rational mold.

Nothing wrong with that. MMG is for free discussion as long as we're civil.



I think it is in your second sentence that others would find debatable.

You can try by saying the burden of proof lies with Nick and the membership -- and they shoot back with:

"who says the burden's on us..you?"

P2P members may feel they're not under any obligation to do so even as they continue to promote.

Of course, the opposition and the critical thinkers will alway be around as a counter-balance to the defenders.

It' part of the reality.

The burden of proof lies with any promoter or owner who wants to sell this as the one all end all program. Sure if I find that to be the case I will promote it like that. If you want to tell me "IDK whats going, here's what I was told, all I know is this is working right now!" then that's fine. But for one to attack someone who is asking questions, rather then give them honest answers back. Do not attack someone for having question about a program that is hyped up like it's the best thing EVER. If you want to promote it as that, as most seem to think P2P will be around a while, then tell me why. What proof does one have that Nick does anything that we hear about? Most companies give quarterly reports. Do we see any of this here? Does Nick email the membership a report of how money is made? Up till now I haven't heard of something like this, thus we have questions.

If you are promoting something then you will have to answer questions. Like the old saying goes "A Fool and his money are soon parted". Is P2P just looking for "idiots" who blindly invest in something? Is P2P scared to answer real questions? And back it up with proof? To me Nick said so doesn't cut it in this industry. Can Nick prove it? Some might say Nick doesn't have to prove it. Well we all learned from programs like PIPs, It4us etc..erc that admin can and do lie about such things.

Does it really matter to me if and I SAY IF p2p is just a huge ponzi? Nope it doesn't that's fine by me. I know and understand that game. But, if it's real and sustainable I want to know because I will invest tons more and my investment planner will be different.

So wherein lies the truth?

Yoda

Well I'm done with this. From now on, I will let actions speak louder than words, and on that

note, all I have to say is......

Thank you, NICK!!!!!

Life is too short, to waste it in negativity!!! I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE....and since it seems we

are ALL entitled to our opinions here, that one's mine!!!!

*** Great News ! ***

You have successfully received money from a registered SolidTrust Pay member!
Keep this email as your receipt.

From STPay member email: smirnow@sympatico.ca
From STPay username: rddirect
Transaction Number: 7623
Amount:
Details (if provided): Username Terri

Congrats on the payment!

To bad you see my post as negativity. I am just simply stating the facts how I see them. I haven't once said anything negative about the program. I am just trying to get all the info I can to make a decision. Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want. Ultimately it is their money to make and/or lose.

Yoda

WooHoo!! WTG MoneyTree!! Congrats!!!

I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE ALSO!!!!

That's fine people are allowed to make any choice they want. My problem was with people attacking someone who is just asking questions.

Yoda

Maybe they're not attacking as much as they are defending the way they know how...anyway, doesn't matter.

You would have to hear it straight from the promoters.

Whether they choose to honor your queries is another matter.




Truth in this arena?

Good luck in the ferret-outing

Hi hi hi, I was paid today for Feb16th pending. Nice figures too.
Thanks Nick and staff.

Congrats to you to Claw!

Don't get me wrong..those questions are valid and well-thought out.

Bottom-line, for those contemplating the risk or the plunge--when in doubt, DON'T!

Don't put your money in.

Simply, DON'T!


Then comes the argument: but they're promoting what's most likely a scam..yadda yadda.

Then, it's well within your right to be the opposing party and continue to press on with the questions and hope for a satisfactory answer.

If it ever comes..and to your satisfaction.

To all negative posters,

as i cannot prove that this is legit. I see all those high risks and always afford which i can afford to lose.

Can you all here prove that this is Ponzi. if yes then please go ahead. How can he survive paying 60% per month as ponzi model.

Do I need a Tin Foil hat here? Name a business that can turn a 60% profit every month. Please name just one. In the real world a good ROI is like 25% a YEAR!!! People jump at that all day long.

Studio Traffic offered 1% a day and they failed. Plus they had outside sources of income. Sure a well ran ponzi can last paying 30%/60% and higher. But just because a program has paid for a year doesn't mean it's real.

The question isn't "Can I prove it is a ponzi". The question is Can I prove it's not a ponzi. That is my mission. I am doing my DD to see if P2P is sustainable and long lasting. If so I am going to join and sing from the roof tops telling people to get in. If it's a ponzi and see it has the potential to make money I will join and advise my friends/contacts to hit it for a few quick bucks. If I think it's going to die for whatever reason, I will post that.

Still researching..

Yoda



Yoda

Ok, this is from Nick from the latest newscast, take it for what it is worth.
Nick said the current upgraded membership is around 3500, and that he is paying out around a hundred thousand a day, he also said the payout he just completed was for over a hundred and sixty thousand just for that day.So I do have to question haow he is paying that amount every day when he only has around 3500 upgraded members if he is entirely relying on new upgrades.



Layton

dear yoda, do not get angry with my post. i am not saying that you are negative here. also i cannot prove that this is legit as i play all these as pure high risk games.
i am happy with its performance. but i am really intersted in knowing from all the negative persons here to prove that this is a ponzi model.

Same Here Alwaysowen* Good For You* Tree Cheers

If I may venture a humble opinion. An insite that has just occured to me.

The basics of the issue is that a business wants people to give them money and promises to give them more in return. It has Advertized to the general public thru varying means. To many people the amount of promoting has been sufficient enough that they will loan money.
For many others the amount of advertizing is lacking.
Most of the debate here has shifted from the merits of the biz proposal to justifaction of there own actions. That kinda misses the point of the thread, in my opinion that is.
Both sides have very valid points and are entrenched. I'm glad to see that the mud slingers, vigilantes, paid cheerleaders and trolls have been kept at bay by the good people of MMG.
I value the opinion and experiences of both sides.

As always goodluck to everyone. And forgive me if I am being Captain Obvious.

Got this from MCF Forum:-

Hey there everyone.

Wanted to let you know that the newest interview with Nick is up and ready for viewing. It is a good one!!

Enjoy it!

Here is the link.

http://www.24surfmonitor.com/new/p2pint2.php

Thanks.Heard a little of the interview,very impressive!

i received my first payment (pending since 19 Feb 2008) few hours ago
thank you very much

Thanks* Sam for posting the link! Wow* what great news i can,t sleep at 219AM

I listened to the call with Nick and I will not post my thoughts. I got a funny feeling about this one and as a part of MMG staff I cannot say anything else. Good Luck to those that are in I really hope for your sake he can do what he talks about.

Prosperous Regard,

Yoda

Boy I can't believe we are going over this same old ground again. The P2P business model is Illegal in Canada. Call the Ministry of Consumer and Corporate Affairs in Ottawa, in order to receive money and return it with a profit with NO tangible product being exchanged that is by definition an "investment" it doesn't matter what Nick calls or how he tries to word it, retirement club, or pig in a poke.

As for your comments above OF COURSE the money is being invested.. it's being invested with Nick. If YOUR money is being "piggy backed" on his investments as he states then YOUR money is invested.. but this all moot anyway.. bottom line in Canada if NO tangible goods change hands for the profit to have been received it is investment income it can't be investment income unless you've invested...

I have posted this in other places those that CARE about being legal will act upon it, those that don't won't..so be it.. its each person's right to do what they wish with their own money.

1. Call the Ministry stated above, outline for them a business model using P2P as an example, you don't have to give their name. Ask them if that business would need to be registered to sell securities or investments etc..etc...

2. Now call the OSC and ask them if Nick or P2P is registered... they are not.

3. Now call the RCMP and ask if Item 1 was needed and after called Item 2 you found they didn't have it, is that business operating legally?

POOF now you know.. don't take my word for it, don't take the "I Got Paid" crowds word for it.. them being paid does NOT make a business legal or not.. it's simply being paid.. DO YOUR OWN research.. base it on FACTS not third party information.. once you've done that then you can decided to invest or not..



Money transmitters need to be licensed in whatever state they receive or send payments.. private payment programs as you state above do not require that license. Whether they require a different one or not is up to each state. Even Paypal is not required to have a license in all states.. so you've have to check your home state to see what if any licensing they would require.. being located off shore does NOT negate that requirement if they are doing business with US citizens of that state.



You'd think wouldn't you? but you're right you'll not find anything about him doesn't that kinda answer your question for you?



You realize the irony of what normally brings down a program like this is the members, the ones that rant and rave about how anyone that doesn't believe is this that or the other and they go on and on and make all sorts of wild claims etc.. etc.. then sooner or later someone in a position of authority takes note and poof goes the golden goose... which is likely what will happen in this case as well. It is amazing to me the lengths some people will go to defend something that they have never fully and legally checked out personally, but rather a friend of their brother's aunt's dog told them about it.. it is quite a study in human nature.



I can bet you if you asked Nick he would be very clear that he wished all promoters of this thing would behave like you, the quiet this is MY personal experience only and none of the raving about Nick is this and Nick owns that and etc..etc..etc... all those spotlights are NOT what he or any program wants or needs UNLESS they need new money.. common sense should win out, but sadly it seldom does.

This was a great interview and i feel very safe for my money.
To all the naysayers: Why are you wasting your time here ?
It's so simple, just go anywhere else and join another program.

Congrats Max!!

Replied to your PM also

Congrats max!!

And here's to many more...

Yes svanson, I agree that the interview was great and in fact it was one of those "super-surprised" moments:



Thanks Nick for everything you are doing for us! You and Kent are doing very well!! Keep up the great work!!

I found the interview to be laughable at best. I guess I have been around too long and have seen and heard it all.
Nick is not even original. Just what everybody needs is another unlicensed payment processor. This is simply a ploy to control money on a screen and give more excuses for the late payments. P2P has already been reported by some at Talk Gold to the OSC and I dont doubt the SEC. Just how confident does this make you?

What I find somewhat shocking is that the MMG group here seems to understand the risk and even those that participate say its a gamble at best. I dont see to many people saying to bet the farm here when no proof exists of any claims made by p2p. The obvious conclusion is that this a ponzi based program that is right now grasping for the last big push. When it will end unknown but it will end whether the authorities shut them down or they just run out of money.

I find it amazing that people could believe otherwise especially those that have been around a while. Of course I understand your position to try to keep the illusion alive without ruining your reputation in the hyip community. Its all so obvious to me. Stand by because p2p is coming down soon. Just how much risk are you willing to take at this time?

This is worse than going into a casino to play blackjack. You know your odds in that scenario. P2P is an outright deception and if the authorities get wind of this there will be some unhappy people.

I am thinking out loud here, but here goes.

Why must there be a forum for a real investment?

I won shares in a bank, and they just pay me. There is no forum to go to or a ra-ra club.
The bank has paid for over 2 decades now.

Real investments are private. They don't have people running around and posting...I got paid.

I do not see big businesses doing this.

So why would we fall for these lame tactics?

My guesss is, this will go poof!

yo

PAID AGAIN to my solidtrustpay account

1 payment received March 6th from a Feb 14th cashout request and
2 payments received March 7th from a Feb 16th cashout request!


Thanks again Nick and staff,


I have a second account set up for my church's building fund http://www.ComeAsYouAreLeaveChanged.com

This program has been life changing.

So, why don't you simply go back to your RPP's ?
Also, your post sounds very envious not to be a member of this great program !