For a short while profitshare sites made the trend in the autosurf arena then too many of them popped up falled victim for hit & runners....This concept was still young in the hyip arena though.

First hyip of that kind was Dailyprofitshare (run by TinyUrl a.k.a Scott from Aut0surf) who scammed; then everyone wanted a profit sharing site from a proven admin. Then tysin (known for his so called ,,popular games" in which most of the people were loosing money) brought up profitsharepro. He thought profit sharing alone would solve the problem with hit & runners and failed to think at some other measures to make the site less appealing to them.

The news about this launch spread like fire and in the first day and an enourmous amount of deposits came in ( 65 k). Some thought they should go big the first day and wait till they were well in profit and then reinvest.
Well that didn't worked cause all the investors thought like this so the ones that invested or reinvested in the following days lost. This actually ruined the whole profit sharing concept ruined investor's confidence in the concept. They knew the admin was going to pay them but they were afraid of what the others investor's could do and nobody wanted to be a looser. Eventually the site failed without lack of support from members. Any other profitsharing site from that moment is destined to fail. Some of the autosurfs reverted to classic plans of fixed ROI, some are still waiting for something to happen. The good intention of tysin to create a program where everyone was winning did more harm then good. No one understands thet H&R mentality doesn't work in the long term. If things don't change soon, the industry is going to die.

I don't think you can blame Tysin because all of his programs are treated that way. They are hit and run programs every single time. I think profit sharing will gain momentum but it make time some time and some 'honest' programs.

One of the biggest problems is that there are the hit and runners. For those of you that remember the great doubler days, when the mentality was get in big and out big, but do it real fast, well that is the same mentality that has crept into this arena.

It is alot like the NFL. In the old days, the players would stay with a team almost for life. Now they are lucky if they stay for five years. In the old days, the players stayed even if the team was in a slump and having problems. They stayed during the good and the bad. Same thing with this industry. People get bored with one thing, get nervous about another thing, and just keep bouncing around.

What it is going to take, is a significant amount of members that will make a stand, pick a program with an honest dependable admin, and just stick with it through thick and thin. That is what will make a program last.

I know there are alot of variables here, and profit share is not the main answer for the industry's problems right now. Alot of the variables, I think, fall directly on the shoulders of the members.

My thoughts.

After 4 sites in which he got hared he shoud've learned something i think....

Not so sure about the profit share concept(even i promote a new one in my sig)..in the AS arena were only paying programs and no one is interested in them anymore....especially after tysin's program..or this could be holiday's effect too

btw remember forever concept and E9?

I do agree with you Billy..

I don't get it... psp was a victim of HAR"s by your own admission, so I'm not sure how that's tysin's fault. Shouldn't be thanking your fellow HAR investor?

Tysin probably could've done some things differently, but who really knew what would've happened?

Btw, to everyone throwing the accusatory stones at people like dave, tysin, and every other failed admin out there, where are your programs? The ones that are run with your brilliant ideas that'll make it actually work? Don't have the balls?

let me clear this.. where are their Fault!!?... their fault is that they run a ponzi or scam programs.. these programs have no future for investors.. that's their fault.
and one day they must have these names ( scamer or froudy) because their programes backed by nothing.. just games..
Investors don't know they are playing games or investing in some thing serious.
so there is not a fault of tysin or dave.. there is fault of structure of programs.. because structure of programs are ecnomicaly dead... these programs have to die on day.. so there shouldn't be blame at any one.. because every one should know before investing in these programs that they are playing game or gambling their money..
correct me if i am wrong..

P.S if anyone really conern about that he or she run a program and don't loss money or their name in this industry ..so their program should have a solid backed by any income resources.. so they can produce the money for their investors..

i think you got a refund, right?

Well....even if i reinvested i haven't got one..and i bet many more members were like me (that's the game i know.but he could have distrubuted the funds through his members so everyone would receive something)

Fact is , tysin only thought about his cutt when he set that max...and he added about 3 monitors right? wasn't there suppose to be a 5% for advertising budget if i remember well?
the only thing tysin did in every game of his was blaming the HaRs but not taking measures against them!

Wasn't it supposed to be a " A phenomenal Administration team." ?

I actually did support him even when the % was low..but what have i got in the end? a loss...and i'm not crying but can't dance of joy either!

That doesn't mean he is a bad admin and is the only one responsible...but he could've manage it more better than that

Because you haven't any other choise

Whether I got a refund or not, I'd still say the same thing, and I'd still find it hilarious how the HAR tactic backfired on most of the HAR's in psp. I only invested $50, money I could afford, so it was no skin off my nose either way.

I lose in plenty of programs and don't whine about it, except maybe mvp LOL. But that was only because that sham site was in the paying section. Now that it's where it belongs, you don't see me saying s**t.

Most people who are crying about how bad tysin and dave are, are people who threw in more than they could afford.

Guess what... they were ponzis, and not everyone will get paid in the end.

I don't really have a clue what method tysin used to do refunds, it was his choice, but if I were him, I would've considered two things when doing refunds over anyone else...

The people who made re-deposits.
The people who were less critical.

That's just how I would do it. I was among those who re-depsoited, so maybe he did the same thing, don't know. But of course not even that would guarantee that there was enough to refund all of those people either

Well...don't know how you would reacted if you didn't got the refund but i think you would have seen it differently at least ....and about mvp...i remember the day it got supposedly hacked the admin was all there and even provided his phone numbers to members who wanted to call him! and he at least tried to do something with those mlm's...wasn't in that one so don't now quite well what happened!


and you expect a decent managed ponzi to last at least of full week or so...DenmarkI lasted more than a month at outrageous rates..so from A phenomenal Administration team like this you would expect a lot more

Fact is i would've still supported tysin even with 1%/day..2 more days and the deposits for the first day would've expired...and even if it's just speculation i think most of the investors would gain their confidence back

I don't think they are bad.but everyone must enjoy Christmas, isn't it? And btw 12by12 lasted 5 moths..

One thing that bugs me a little bit about this thread, is that Tysin is not here to defend himself. He tried, it failed. Plain and simple. Every admin could have done things differently. There are always changes that should have been done.

But, it might be time to quit throwing Tysins name around. I was never in any of his programs, for the simple fact that I did not feel comfortable with them. I dont even know this Tysin person, but still renders to reason that it might be best not to bash him. Just some thoughts...again.

Silly people Tysin did not kill the Profit Sharing concept He just did not use it properly to avoid Hit and Runners

It is an excellent concept however it still needs a lot of work

I was disappointed highly in Tysins program not only because I lost a few hundred dollars but because I thought an admin of his experience would of known he would of been hit hard on the first day..

Blessings
Debra

Nope. Anyone who's read my posts and know who I am know that I'd act the same way. I lost money in GSS, and who did I blame... the members. I lost money in incredibleprofits, and who did I blame... the members. Like I said, had I lost that $50, it would've still been worth being amused by the HAR's who beat themselves with their own game.



This is where you obviously don't understand the typical HAR investor.

There may be a few who throw some money in sites run by unknown admins, if it's popular enough, but they aren't gonna throw in a huge amount all atonce, if they're a vet. That's why those programs last longer, because most people either wait on the sideline to see what happens, or they throw in small test spends at first, then when they finally go in big... bam! That's when the scammer strikes.

When some "known" admin like tysin comes along, HAR's salivate, because they know chances are good he won't run, so every single HAR comes out of the woodworks and hits it with everything but the kitchen sink.

Only problem is, now the HAR's have to worry about their own HAR investors, lol.

It's not all the members. It's the administrator as well.

The admin needs to have a through plan and put edges in that will help turn away Hit and Runners from taking over the system. If the model is a definie ponzi scheme which the majority of these programs are then it is destine to fail at some point. I do not know what the perfect model is or a way to prevent them so I will not act like I do.

The profitsharing model is a brillant idea and I still believe it could work (with some minor improvements and changes).

Blessings
Debra

You dont seems to get the point here there is no one to blame its more with win win situations

The HaR mentality was already prezent in autosurfs before PSP launched...tysin should've just made a little research and think a little of a sollution not launching the site as fast as possible...just becuz he feared someone else could have launched a profitsharing hyip before him

And most of the profitsharing autosurfs (even with unknown admins) before his site couldn't sustain a % more than 10% for 3 days because of the HaRs who gained more and more adepts with every site that popped up!

And the ones that succeded to have 10% for 3,4,5 days was mainly becuz of ASA and an agressive advertising campaign! What do u expect to achieve with 3 monitors?

You just can't change how the masses think.....this is the industry now and an admin who wants to succed and make a good program for members must have a good plan not just thinking only about his cutt

And why do you blame the members here? becuz the ones who did reinvested lost more than the others...some lost allmost everything reinvested..and becuz of that no one wants to put more money in the next day now in these sites now...

I blame the members because not only are they being selfish and greedy money leeches, but they're not being smart investors... throwing in 4 figures, then want to cry about it or slam the admin because they themselves broke every golden rule in the book, and made their own mistake. I can't stand whiners, and there's nothing I can't stand more than people who want to throw the blame at everyone else but themselves.

Come on, you got to love the poetic justice with what happened here in psp with the HARS, lol. I mean it was perfect.

I put in $50, which is why I re-deposited on the second and third day, had nothing to lose. I don't think I've ever spent more than $100 in any given program, and guess what, I'm about even, maybe even a little ahead of the game.

And again, I see everyone saying how tysin shoulda did it, what he shouldn't've done, just like dave... shoulda, woulda, coulda... but I don't see many of these expert wannabe admins running their own programs.

Personally the concept is not good. The mathimatical equation no matter how you try to put it together ends in failure. Im not sure where you people are from , but in my book any concept that is new and is a failure before it ever launches is not too good.


Dr.P

I agree with you David.. and you have nice strategy of investment..
but in success of a program or a shutdown of a program it's all depends on it's membership.. if membership want to boostup .. Then program ecome successfull. If membership don't work hard then a program face a loss quickly..
P.S loss is end of all games over here.. but IF investors want that ponzi can run for little longer then other programs

yep...i admit it i'm guilty for reinvesting<----i should thank tysin for this mentality!

From all his games which all sucked.....this was the worst..joined it only because it was profit sharing!

how come dave who is a so called "honest" admin managed to keep his surf for a decent time? Why didn't all members HAR the first day and leave....wasn't in his program anyway.but people should consider the program had a life of 5 months i think..and that is very rare

And i agree we're going nowhere....what happened happened.....hopefully next admins would learning something from this failure.....these disscusions took place after every game of tysin! He just didn't listened to any small suggestion.....

I'm not whining about my loss...didn't called tysin scammer....didn't demand any $$ back too...this is my last post here btw...

I didn't join COG because I knew it would be a HAR paradise, and it was. But I did join psp, and just like all his other progs, it was a HAR paradise also. But I don't slam tysin, because I'm responsible for my own actions. If his programs sucked, or I knew it would be HAR'd to death, I had the choice of not joining, simple.

I'm not necessarily defending tysin. There're things he probably could've done different, and maybe he did plan it out so that the HAR's would strike hard causing the prog to end quickly, so that he could get his share and leave... who knows.

But I'm not gonna let the HAR's blame him for their own mistakes... I'm not gonna let them get off that easily.



Again, totally different situation with dave. Apples and oranges. Not only do hyip's bring in a whole different clientele with a whole different mentality, and not only is there a difference keeping an upgrade for about 12 days (20 actually) as opposed to cashing out everday, but dave had 30k members... tysin had just under 1k... do the math.

i saw tysins previous games . All the money got invested first day. I saw no more money got invested the rest of the lifespan so it was cases of who could request a withdrawal first.

I found out how profitsharepro was going to work. Immediately realised this system was just going to result in more people loosing than winning. And in my opinion anyone who invested was bound for a loss (because all the money gets invested day 1). In peoples eyes it would look like tysin doesnt care and is just in for the cut. But there are many more factors to this. Because tysin needed to get in early before other programs launhced, he launched psp quickly.. therefore leaving less time to planning. He didnt run any simulations to possible events so could put any limits in place until the program was launched. By then it was too late and everyone had invested.

I guess I saw profit sharing as being a good concept because I overestimated the investors... I thought maybe most of them were tired and jaded about how things were going and would be willing to do something different, and perhaps...

Cooperate with each other.

Yea right. No concept or ideas or HAR measures will ever change the way things are unless the investors change.... bottom line.

Fat chance of that ever happening... which is why this industry is doomed.

yeh and if theres no money in the industry - scammers just go elseware to make their money.. off to ebay or somewhere. So no big budget admins taking risks to earn big.

My thoughts on tysin are that everyone had too much trust in him thats why his hyips got hard. No one needed test spends.. no one needed to 'watch this one' or 'invest later' because they knew tysin wasnt a scammer. So they chucked in their e-gold asap to get the best out of 'get in early'.

If i were him i would still be creating new programs.. just under a different name.

That's a theory but i doubt so....he just thought the profit sharing concept was flawless
And he was going to make only payouts and members will do the rest....and he would have earned a nice profit for some time!


And i'm not a HaR for your info.....guess i'm not that smart...




You are the one that put both of them in the same sentence for a few times, remember?

I wonder if CC got a refund

Actually it wouldn't have mattered how smart you were or not, whether you HAR'd or didn't, everyone lost out either way. I just find it hilarious for the ones who tried to HAR with spends bigger than they could afford to lose, lol.



I brought up dave in reference to him being bashed by people who don't understand what a ponzi is and how it's suppose to end, and who seem to have the expertise to criticize dave for how he ran his program, but don't have the balls to run their own.

Your reference was how dave, who was dubbed "honest" like tysin, ran his program for 5 months and tysin couldn't run for 5 days.

References... see the difference?

At least the HaRs from PSP will have a happy Christmas...unlike the poor soul that deposited 1k in the 3rd day!

Agree with the points in your blog though they're gonna lose in long run but still they will be euforic for a while after they make some quick profits...and most of them are addicted to risk more than they can afford ...greed is something many can't control:p:




In the first cycle, Dave also had these problems and overpassed them.....and you mentioned be4 that all "honest" admins get HaRed....and dave overcome the first obstacle...or investors were less paranoic 5 months back...don't know

Anyways...we're back to normal plan autosurfs and 50/50 rule i guess...profit sharing was good while it lasted

mirc3a24, I don’t think the Profit Sharing will (or should) just get buried.
What we went through (we still are) was just to get to know the plain, “naked” concept.
However, just like with standard HYIPs, various permutations of this concept should be and WILL BE tried.
Remember how many suggestions, by so many, were offered about how things should and should not have been done? Some of them were not valid, as they were based on the state of events AFTER they happened, but there were many good points made as well.
++++++++++
About PSP in general, while some critique comments indeed have merit, overall, I think that this program was not given a chance to have its natural end. It must be mentioned, that besides HARing issue, there was an incredibly aggressive anti-PSP/tysin “campaign” carried out. It did played a role, it should be mentioned and not be underestimated.
P.S. My record here was: played (!!!) with $150, reinvested all 85% of paid money on day 2, got refunded at the bitter end.

Dude, you're getting all my points and references twisted and confused, lol.

First reference I made about dave had to do with the whiny losers in his ponzi who think they could've done better:




Second reference was me explaining why even though people considered dave "honest," his program launch was a totally different scenario than tyin's program:

In bold indicates that people tend to "test spend"more in autosurfs than hyip's.

Also, let me mention, when 12x12 first started in the first month, they were experiencing alot of bugs, plus some doubts and negativity about the status of dnd that spilled over into the 12x12 thread.

It's not hard to figure out the many differences between the two.

It happens!
Must be from the lack of sleep!

misunderstood a sentence and then all went to a diff direction.

I dont believe that PSP's are the answer, they sound plausable, but as I see it they are destined to fail for the same reason as another current online program.

They lack substance, and they rely on the same re-investment component as any other ponzi based scheme.

I'm not saying ponzis are neccessarily a bad thing, but without outside income sources, they are destined to fail, with HAR (which let's face it is here to stay) just speeding up the process.
We need to stop comparing programs to 12dp, this was a phenomenom, which we may all look for again, but I doubt that we will find it.

What 12x12 and Tysins's program did have in common was phenomenal first day growth, when you rely on growing by more than you payout including refcoms, in every cycle, the maths become exponential, and the figures never add up. If you pay out daily, the figures become even more frightening.
I held off in 12x12 for some time, because I could see nothing but problems arising from the supercharged growth of the early days, it was a good call on my part, because scripting problems, overloaded servers, etc nearly ground things to a halt, Dave traded on his name, and as we all know had fanatical support.
The combinations of these things allowed a recovery.

Had Dave limited membership over the growing stages to say 1000 upgraded memberships per week , would anything have been different? If the program had grown a little steadier, would it have lasted any longer? I think it probably would.

If Dave had had some real outside income streams, outside of piggybanking on other programs, would it have lasted even longer? You bet it would have, if Dave wanted it to ( I will leave that last phrase up to your own interpretation.

Pete

Well i think the script problems and all the other problems were just a briliant solution from dave to delay payouts and make the program survive the fenomenal growth from first day

The outside income streams would have been very nice but it would took time to build an offline real business....and there was no insurrance it would work

You are quite probably right with your assumption that Dave was planning his exit from day 1.

Legitimate investments do take some time to bear fruit, however, every bit helps to extend the ponzi model.

Pete

If Tysin has run so many programs then he should know
what to prepare for and put check and measures in place
to ensure that the program won be plundered over night
Ponzi H.A.R. Storm Troopers.

agreed & that was what HYIP is like back in the good old days of 2000-2002 where it's not uncommon that some of them will last more than 18mths - 2 yrs before it closed!

i think 2007 will be very interesting as some1 mention to me that the avg. spend in HYIP will be $10 as most ppl will not risk anymore than that in scams...

will be interesting to watch in 2007 how hyips performed

I know of at least one good program that will be opening in 2007

Courtney

2007 had turns out to be one of scotts this is sick!

Thanks for the info here. I am a newbie and I can learn a lot from you guys!!

I have original idea of profit sharing program with clever returns and administration fee which wouldn't let owner to cheat. My model requires a unique script and much work. If my first investment project will success and people will trust me, i hope to create the profit sharing program after 2-4 months. Need to acknowledge that profit sharing is much more reliable than a simple high yield investment. That is future of HYIPs.